LOL, I know what ya mean there, actually. But you get my drift. I have also known many who never went to college who can think very well. Yet, I'm thinking that whatever you do that causes you to do some hard thinking helps you to think better. So, maybe doing the crossword puzzle will help my bass playing, or maybe my bass playing will help my learning astronomy. Heh.
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how do modes work, really?
- Thread starter ILLINOX
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LOL, I know what ya mean there, actually. But you get my drift. I have also known many who never went to college who can think very well. Yet, I'm thinking that whatever you do that causes you to do some hard thinking helps you to think better. So, maybe doing the crossword puzzle will help my bass playing, or maybe my bass playing will help my learning astronomy. Heh.
Say, what does it mean when you can picture sounds in your mind? Different notes have color to me, and different instruments (or timbres) have a visible color and texture to me. For instance, C is white and pale green, D is tan, E is green and black, F is orange, G is brown/black, A is red, and B is black with a white edge. A violin's sound is reddish with a silver edge while a trumpet is black and yellow. When listening, I can "see" the music, so to speak.
I am weird.
I believe the term for that is "synesthesia."
I think I'll throw in another pitch for learning modes - and it has to do with what I call "triangulation".
One thing that is foundational for most musicians, is learning all of the keys and the major scales plus dorian and natural minor, at least.
It takes time and it intersects with other things such as knowing the intervals, being able to transpose, and building up the generic ability to think in terms of a (variable) set of notes while you're improvising.
One good way to do this is to play harmonized seventh chords on each interval of each position in a major scale in all 15 keys.
Learning the modes is like another view of the same material - there's a bit more information, but after you've got those harmonized 7th chords down you are really starting to "see" and internalize all of the keys, and moving on to modes shows you other angles as to why those chords have the intervals that they do, and it kind of naturally follows as a logical order of learning these things, IMO.
I think there is something about going over the same basic stuff from different points of view or ways of organizing the information, that really helps us learn more efficiently.
Switching up those harmonized seventh chords through various inversions and voicings, and going descending first in the order and also descending in the voicings themselves, and going in 4-7-3-6-2-5-1 order sometimes, makes a big difference. I also like to work on harmonized chords as what I call "the other chords" - root, 2, 4, 6 (which is like 9, 11, and 13th chords with all of the 7th chord intervals omitted except the root). These sound cool and modern, and with practice they seem recognizable and consonant. They have nice shades of gray without screaming "jazz" (not that there is anything wrong with screaming "jazz").
So getting into the modes works in a similar way, I think. The benefits are bigger than your need to deliberately think of them while improvising or writing. This is also why I think of them as sort of second tier study material for players that are solid on the basics.
One thing that is foundational for most musicians, is learning all of the keys and the major scales plus dorian and natural minor, at least.
It takes time and it intersects with other things such as knowing the intervals, being able to transpose, and building up the generic ability to think in terms of a (variable) set of notes while you're improvising.
One good way to do this is to play harmonized seventh chords on each interval of each position in a major scale in all 15 keys.
Learning the modes is like another view of the same material - there's a bit more information, but after you've got those harmonized 7th chords down you are really starting to "see" and internalize all of the keys, and moving on to modes shows you other angles as to why those chords have the intervals that they do, and it kind of naturally follows as a logical order of learning these things, IMO.
I think there is something about going over the same basic stuff from different points of view or ways of organizing the information, that really helps us learn more efficiently.
Switching up those harmonized seventh chords through various inversions and voicings, and going descending first in the order and also descending in the voicings themselves, and going in 4-7-3-6-2-5-1 order sometimes, makes a big difference. I also like to work on harmonized chords as what I call "the other chords" - root, 2, 4, 6 (which is like 9, 11, and 13th chords with all of the 7th chord intervals omitted except the root). These sound cool and modern, and with practice they seem recognizable and consonant. They have nice shades of gray without screaming "jazz" (not that there is anything wrong with screaming "jazz").
So getting into the modes works in a similar way, I think. The benefits are bigger than your need to deliberately think of them while improvising or writing. This is also why I think of them as sort of second tier study material for players that are solid on the basics.
Teleharmonium,
Could I take a 7th chord(s) from one key and use them with 7th chords from another key and still develop an interesting melody? This might seem like a stupid question since I found out that staying strictly diatonic can be limiting.
Could I take a 7th chord(s) from one key and use them with 7th chords from another key and still develop an interesting melody? This might seem like a stupid question since I found out that staying strictly diatonic can be limiting.
Nope. I just like not having to care what key anything is in. It leads to various fringe benefits.
Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm following you, I'll try to restate to see if this is right - you're asking if diatonic 7th chords from one key (let's say C), or those notes as intervals for an improv solo or written melody, will work over diatonic 7th chords built from the major scale of another key (say F or Bb) ?
If that's what you mean, then sure, at least sometimes. None of these things are absolute, but that's definitely one way to come up with some different sounds. There are different kinds of constructs or ways of thinking about that sort of idea.
One method is to base your writing on a more complex scale that has both major and minor thirds or both flat and perfect fifths or minor and major sevenths in the same scale. Then you can take liberties with the melody while still having a certain gravity back to the diatonic chords.
Or you can just use chords that change keys or become dissonant or ambiguous in a way that diatonic key no longer describes them, while continuing to play fairly straightforward melodies derived from simple diatonic arpeggios over them. It's like putting sweet on top of sour.
Or you can do superimposition of one chord over another, also known as polychords. Bitches Brew by Miles is a well known example of writing that is full of polychords. Another well known approach involves stacked fourth superimposition which you'll hear on "A Love Supreme" by Coltrane. Sometimes Coltrane starts to emphasize the next chord, or one 4th above the chord the rest of the band is on (which itself may be a chord comprised of stacked fourths), on that and other pieces of music from that time period.
There's a recognizable effect from harmonies that move through cycles of fourths and fifths that gives an interesting moving, searching quality to the sounds. "Hey Joe" is based on that, the basic progression of the song is nothing like a typical diatonic progression and is instead based on descending fourths (which can also be seen as ascending 5ths, except that the chord voicings played in that song in the real world do make it sound more like descending fourths).
Teleharmonium,
Here is my problem. I take a major scale in any Key. Lets use C. I pick any diatonic chord. Lets say Bm7b5. I'll play in this order: B,D,F,A,E. My ear notices that if I start on B and end on E, that sounds like a good note to resolve on. Nice and dark. C works well too. Then I'll take other diatonic chords and play the chord tones in different combinations and inversions and see what kinds of phrases/tonalties I get. I'll try to listen which notes sound conosant and which are dissonant. I try to come up with simple grooves and melodies but they all sound elementary and still kind of sound like Im just playing a C major scale. Its basically just playing the C major notes and chords in random order and seeing what works and what doesnt. I listen to someone like Jaco and there is all this movement and color and wonder exactly how do I come up with interesting melodies and grooves besides just playing Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 in linear fashion up and down.
I just don't know what do with all this knowledge and how to progress. I guess the only thing left is to transcribe music.
Here is my problem. I take a major scale in any Key. Lets use C. I pick any diatonic chord. Lets say Bm7b5. I'll play in this order: B,D,F,A,E. My ear notices that if I start on B and end on E, that sounds like a good note to resolve on. Nice and dark. C works well too. Then I'll take other diatonic chords and play the chord tones in different combinations and inversions and see what kinds of phrases/tonalties I get. I'll try to listen which notes sound conosant and which are dissonant. I try to come up with simple grooves and melodies but they all sound elementary and still kind of sound like Im just playing a C major scale. Its basically just playing the C major notes and chords in random order and seeing what works and what doesnt. I listen to someone like Jaco and there is all this movement and color and wonder exactly how do I come up with interesting melodies and grooves besides just playing Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 in linear fashion up and down.
I just don't know what do with all this knowledge and how to progress. I guess the only thing left is to transcribe music.
AndyMania, it sounds like you're at a point where you have a handle on diatonic fundamentals and you are ready for the next step.
I would suggest several things - working on some relatively simple non diatonic progressions, and on some songs that are basically diatonic that change keys; and also spend some time just thinking melodically. Don't try to start with a chord or a scale; just listen to the melodic line over the changes. Scale based playing is one method of learning music, but it will never make anyone a great player. It has real limitations and it's just not how most great players think once they have a mature style
I think one of the challenging aspects of learning music for a lot of players is that they start off with diatonic concepts, which is fine and makes sense, but along the way they develop an expectation that those concepts are more encompassing than they are. Learning those puts you at the beginning of something, not the end.
I'll try to offer something simple and specific here to illustrate what I mean. These are just some chords I'm throwing together for this post which I picked out on a guitar. I'm playing simple chords, one per quarter note, in a sort of pop/r&b style.
D |D |C |Bb |D |D |F |F |
D |D |C |Bb |D |D |D |D |
(repeat the first two lines, then do this B section once, then back to the first line once for a typical AABA type of thing ; if this was a real song I was writing, I would probably do something different with a breakdown or a bridge or intro/outro, but this will suffice)
D |Eb6 |D |C#7 |D |Dm/F |Eb7 |D |
for the last section, the top notes for the first 4 chords are F#, G, F#, F, then the Dm\F chord is voiced with an F in the bass and an A on top, and the Eb7 is voiced with a G on top, which descend down to the F# on top of the D major chord (D - A - D - F# low to high).
When I think of melody lines for this, I seem to be finding a scale on D which is like a major or dominant scale from the root up to the fifth, but then it has a b6 and both b7 and major 7th and I'm using a b9 as well as a natural 2nd. It just seems to fit these changes and gives me some sort of middle eastern ideas as well as a way to relate to the simple chromatic line formed by the top notes in that progression as I play them on guitar.
The critical point here is that if you have a set of chords that stick together, you can push against them with a little dissonance and you won't break them. Melody can work against or differently than the chords rather than come from the chords.
This is definitely not a diatonic progression in any one key, but it's not too out there either. Lots of pop songs will stack up major triads in seconds like this one does until there is a III or a bVI which are not diatonic (remember, if you reduce it to triads to give yourself some flexibility, there are still no more than 2 major triads that are one whole step apart in any diatonic key, the IV and then a reduction of the V7 with no 7th interval).
It's got a little more complex stuff in it in the b section, but I'm only using chords with
4 notes each, so it's still more like pop than jazz.
I would suggest several things - working on some relatively simple non diatonic progressions, and on some songs that are basically diatonic that change keys; and also spend some time just thinking melodically. Don't try to start with a chord or a scale; just listen to the melodic line over the changes. Scale based playing is one method of learning music, but it will never make anyone a great player. It has real limitations and it's just not how most great players think once they have a mature style
I think one of the challenging aspects of learning music for a lot of players is that they start off with diatonic concepts, which is fine and makes sense, but along the way they develop an expectation that those concepts are more encompassing than they are. Learning those puts you at the beginning of something, not the end.
I'll try to offer something simple and specific here to illustrate what I mean. These are just some chords I'm throwing together for this post which I picked out on a guitar. I'm playing simple chords, one per quarter note, in a sort of pop/r&b style.
D |D |C |Bb |D |D |F |F |
D |D |C |Bb |D |D |D |D |
(repeat the first two lines, then do this B section once, then back to the first line once for a typical AABA type of thing ; if this was a real song I was writing, I would probably do something different with a breakdown or a bridge or intro/outro, but this will suffice)
D |Eb6 |D |C#7 |D |Dm/F |Eb7 |D |
for the last section, the top notes for the first 4 chords are F#, G, F#, F, then the Dm\F chord is voiced with an F in the bass and an A on top, and the Eb7 is voiced with a G on top, which descend down to the F# on top of the D major chord (D - A - D - F# low to high).
When I think of melody lines for this, I seem to be finding a scale on D which is like a major or dominant scale from the root up to the fifth, but then it has a b6 and both b7 and major 7th and I'm using a b9 as well as a natural 2nd. It just seems to fit these changes and gives me some sort of middle eastern ideas as well as a way to relate to the simple chromatic line formed by the top notes in that progression as I play them on guitar.
The critical point here is that if you have a set of chords that stick together, you can push against them with a little dissonance and you won't break them. Melody can work against or differently than the chords rather than come from the chords.
This is definitely not a diatonic progression in any one key, but it's not too out there either. Lots of pop songs will stack up major triads in seconds like this one does until there is a III or a bVI which are not diatonic (remember, if you reduce it to triads to give yourself some flexibility, there are still no more than 2 major triads that are one whole step apart in any diatonic key, the IV and then a reduction of the V7 with no 7th interval).
It's got a little more complex stuff in it in the b section, but I'm only using chords with
4 notes each, so it's still more like pop than jazz.
Modal solo by jrodrig5 on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
Here's something I did very quickly over the changes to "Impressions" - obviously I made quite a few mistakes so please be kind!
My disclaimer: I'm easing my way back into playing, I played for 6-7 years then quit for almost 15! There's a jam session in a week I'm hoping to attend and not embarrass myself too terribly.
Here's something I did very quickly over the changes to "Impressions" - obviously I made quite a few mistakes so please be kind!
My disclaimer: I'm easing my way back into playing, I played for 6-7 years then quit for almost 15! There's a jam session in a week I'm hoping to attend and not embarrass myself too terribly.
Teleharmonium,
The sequence you mentioned; Do I play those as chords or literally just as single notes?
The sequence you mentioned; Do I play those as chords or literally just as single notes?
Stick_Player
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Don't want to derail the left-turn, but this isn't modal.
Didn't say it was...
Those are chords that aren't coming from any one diatonic key. The idea is that you would try soloing over them with something like the scale I mentioned, or just melodically with no particular scale in mind. There is no one mode that will work for the entire progression, so you can't deal with them diatonically.
Stick_Player
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This is why there is such a misunderstanding of modes. Attempting to "find" a "mode" to play over a single chord, then off to the next.
Stick_Player
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Read your post. It clearly states: "There is no one mode that will work for the entire progression".
This indicates that there are multiple "modes" to select from.
Maybe you should back up and read the whole conversation. I was asked for a suggestion of a non diatonic progression to work on. While there are in fact multiple modes to select from in diatonic harmony, the whole point here is that you cannot think that way over those chords because they are not diatonic.
Stick_Player
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Again, my example is not diatonic. As you might have noticed by reading the thread.
