how do modes work, really?

[Stick_Player]

Im gonna study the examples. Still a little confused about the tonal centers. If I wander from the 1 position of A Dorian and progress to lets say, the 3rd position (CEG), arent I technically changing tonal centers since C E G will give me a C major sound....Its almost as if each triad in the scale has its own tonal center.

A couple observations. One, you can't "wander". Two, if you aren't hearing a tonal center , yet... you may need to work with the harmonic rhythm. In other words, the Tonic probably needs to start the phrase, end the phrase, or be placed to rhythmically support the Tonic.

Another Dorian tune that is rather popular is Scarborough Fair.

 

[AndyMania]

Richard,

Ok I see what you are talking about. So how does one make A Dorian sound like it has A as the tonality and not G? I wont bug you guys anymore about this I promise. I'll go fiddle with the fretboard and listen.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Richard,

Ok I see what you are talking about. So how does one make A Dorian sound like it has A as the tonality and not G? I wont bug you guys anymore about this I promise. I'll go fiddle with the fretboard and listen.

Too big a topic for me to take on at this time of night. There isn't just one simple answer.

For starters, I would say, look at the E dorian example Stick_Player posted on the preceding page. What do you notice about the way this tune uses the Em? Does it come at the beginning, middle, or end? Where does the melody start and end?

 

[champbassist]

Richard,

Ok I see what you are talking about. So how does one make A Dorian sound like it has A as the tonality and not G? I wont bug you guys anymore about this I promise. I'll go fiddle with the fretboard and listen.

A simple idea courtesy Frank Gambale about how to form a simple little chord progression in a modal key: use the IV and V of the major scale that relates to the current mode, but use these chords with the root of the said mode as a pedal tone (i.e. in the bass). For example, considering C Dorian, C is the second degree of the Bb major scale. For Bb major, Eb major and F major are, respectively, the IV and V. So, you use Eb major and F major, both with C in the bass to form your progression.

Edit: I know that two chords are probably not going to suffice for a long, entirely modal piece but these chords are incredibly effective, IMO. They create a very good sense of the root of the mode being the 'home base' so to speak.

 

[AndyMania]

Champbassist,

Interesting idea. I will try. In the meantime, Richard, get some sleep. We will discuss more later.

 

[AndyMania]

In Morrison's jig, I'm not sure where exactly the melody comes in. Still brushing up on my reading skills. I am looking at the notated harmonies and notice the E minor harmony in the beginning, middle and end.

 

[Stick_Player]

In Morrison's jig, I'm not sure where exactly the melody comes in. Still brushing up on my reading skills. I am looking at the notated harmonies and notice the E minor harmony in the beginning, middle and end.

The melody starts right in the beginning. The form is AABB'. The A-section is the the first 8 measures repeated. The second B-section is somewhat different than the first B-section. Also, measures 13 & 14 (fifth line) are E Minor (NOT E Major).

The time signature is 6/8. This is a compound time signature. This means that the 6 eighth-notes are divided into two groups of 3. Count it with an emphasis on 1 and 4 - 1 2 3, 4 5 6. And not any faster than someone can dance a Jig to.

I have links to three audio files I made (Cheezy Flute with Cheezy Guitar) - all in 'E-some mode'.

E Dorian - Morrison's Jig

E Phrygian - Beggar Boy

E Lydian - Lydian Nocturne

These should begin to answer the OP's original question and help you hear the AFFECT of different modes.

 

[AndyMania]

Awesome Stick Player. Thanks!

 

[henry2513]

The melody starts right in the beginning. The form is AABB'. The A-section is the the first 8 measures repeated. The second B-section is somewhat different than the first B-section. Also, measures 13 & 14 (fifth line) are E Minor (NOT E Major).

The time signature is 6/8. This is a compound time signature. This means that the 6 eighth-notes are divided into two groups of 3. Count it with an emphasis on 1 and 4 - 1 2 3, 4 5 6. And not any faster than someone can dance a Jig to.

I have links to three audio files I made (Cheezy Flute with Cheezy Guitar) - all in 'E-some mode'.

E Dorian - Morrison's Jig

E Phrygian - Beggar Boy

E Lydian - Lydian Nocturne

These should begin to answer the OP's original question and help you hear the AFFECT of different modes.

Nice, are you using to record with?

 

[Stick_Player]

Nice, are you using to record with?

I did these at Abbey Road.

Seriously, I used Garage Band. I do have RealGuitar installed, though, playing the guitar part.

As an "endorsement" for that product, it is very powerful. I use it in my other so-called 'real' studio with PT/Cubase. The strumming, pick and bass, arpeggio rhythm libraries are very useful and real-sounding.

 

[oniman7]

I didn't bother reading through all 8 pages, but here's how I think of it

As a metal band, I use a lot of Diminished sounds, and therefore, a lot of the Locrian/Phrygian mode (especially Locrian). A mode, to me, is used to communicate a scale and tonality while still retaining the original key identity. For instance, if I'm playing in C Major, I might want to play a little diminished lick. However, I can't use diminished notes starting on C if I'm in the key of C Major - there are accidentals involved. I can, however, start on a B, and go up from there -- B, D, F, etc. So, I'll use a B Locrian scale.

This way I know that we are starting with the key note of B, using a scale with diminished accents. I am still in the key of C Major, but I'm using different scale steps. If I were a guitarist, I could say "Now I'm going to pull a solo in F Lydian", and we know that I am still in the key of C Major, but using a different scale. Each has its own sounds because of different intervals.

 

[Stick_Player]

I didn't bother reading through all 8 pages, but here's how I think of it

As a metal band, I use a lot of Diminished sounds, and therefore, a lot of the Locrian/Phrygian mode (especially Locrian). A mode, to me, is used to communicate a scale and tonality while still retaining the original key identity. For instance, if I'm playing in C Major, I might want to play a little diminished lick. However, I can't use diminished notes starting on C if I'm in the key of C Major - there are accidentals involved. I can, however, start on a B, and go up from there -- B, D, F, etc. So, I'll use a B Locrian scale.

This way I know that we are starting with the key note of B, using a scale with diminished accents. I am still in the key of C Major, but I'm using different scale steps. If I were a guitarist, I could say "Now I'm going to pull a solo in F Lydian", and we know that I am still in the key of C Major, but using a different scale. Each has its own sounds because of different intervals.

I think I am following what you are saying. But, if you are in B Locrian, you are NOT in C Major. The Key Signatures my look the same but they are NOT the same Key.

The three examples I posted, the melodies ALL start on 'E', they can ALL be said to be in some mode based on 'E', but the Key Signatures are ALL different.

E Dorian - 2 sharps

E Phrygian - no sharps, no flats

E Lydian - 5 sharps

 

[henry2513]

I did these at Abbey Road.

Seriously, I used Garage Band. I do have RealGuitar installed, though, playing the guitar part.

As an "endorsement" for that product, it is very powerful. I use it in my other so-called 'real' studio with PT/Cubase. The strumming, pick and bass, arpeggio rhythm libraries are very useful and real-sounding.

Oh Garage Band is nice and wow RealGuitar is neat.

 

[teleharmonium]

Much of the original concepts of key and modes have been reduced to a lot less relevance than they once had in European music. And that's perfectly fine, as far as the music is concerned. Musicians sometimes have a hard time wrapping their head around it, though, and the confusing semantics and overreaching generalizations are a big part of the problem.

I would place modes below some other fundamentals in importance for a student. They certainly have their place, and sometimes a big benefit from studying something is not just about what you can directly do with them, but from their implications and the familiarity required to deal with them.

The criticism that they contain the same notes as major scales misses the point. Absolute pitch isn't what makes music sound the way it does in any specific harmonic context; it's the relationships. An F# over a B root is a totally different sound than an F# over a Bb root (or any other), even though the F# has not changed, because it's the interval we're mainly concerned with, not the note. So saying that a B locrian mode sounds the same as a C ionian is a lot like saying that two different words made from the same letters in a different order should mean the same thing.

Granted, if you are treating either of those two modes as improvisation material with no root defined by other instruments, it's up to you to control the emphasis to keep it from sounding like one and not the other. This does get subtle enough to be confusing for many players; when playing solo, note emphasis and context are what separate the two modes. But those are valid musical factors in pretty much every scenario. It is a misunderstanding to pretend they aren't relevant in order to deny the distinctions that can (but do not always) depend on them.

As a set of scales, the modes of a major scale are obviously an important if not comprehensive selection. As such they are worth being very familiar with, both in and out of traditional diatonic harmony.

What the modes imply about what you can generate out of a set of notes is a huge lesson.

 

[Matthew_84]

This brings up a question I have which is relevant to this thread but almost in the complete other direction. My process of learning music theory went as follows. First I learned notes, intervals, ionian and aeolian scale, their basic triads, the other 5 modes, and then the different chords associated within all these seven modes. Needless to say this has led to a diatonic method of playing. Now when I read pieces that have notes that don't fit in diatonically I get confused. I understand that other notes can be played but I don't know any theory or fundamentals behind this. Does anyone know of any books or anything to practise to help me understand playing non-diatonically?

Thanks

 

[teleharmonium]

This brings up a question I have which is relevant to this thread but almost in the complete other direction. My process of learning music theory went as follows. First I learned notes, intervals, ionian and aeolian scale, their basic triads, the other 5 modes, and then the different chords associated within all these seven modes. Needless to say this has led to a diatonic method of playing. Now when I read pieces that have notes that don't fit in diatonically I get confused. I understand that other notes can be played but I don't know any theory or fundamentals behind this. Does anyone know of any books or anything to practise to help me understand playing non-diatonically?

Thanks

The simplest way to start that I can think of would be to work on blues changes, and folk and rock songs based on mixolydian as the tonic (where the "one" is a dominant chord, or most any song where the first chord is a major triad but it goes to some form of bVIII ). Examples of the latter are countless, but include "Norwegian Wood", "Back in Black", and "Bad Moon Rising" to get you started.

this looks like a pretty good overview, following the 'blues' and 'modal...' links

Pop and Rock Chord Progressions

 

[oniman7]

I think I am following what you are saying. But, if you are in B Locrian, you are NOT in C Major. The Key Signatures my look the same but they are NOT the same Key.

The three examples I posted, the melodies ALL start on 'E', they can ALL be said to be in some mode based on 'E', but the Key Signatures are ALL different.

E Dorian - 2 sharps

E Phrygian - no sharps, no flats

E Lydian - 5 sharps

I think you're saying two different things.

The B Locrian is the 7th mode in the Key of C. You will still have the 7 notes of the C major scale, but in a different order.

B C D E F G A B vs. C D E F G A B C


However, the Dorian, Phrygian, and Lydian are the second, third and fourth modes respectively out of their key. An E Dorian scale is in the key of D. E Phrygian in the key of C, and E Lydian in the Key of B.

If I understand correctly (and tell me if I don't) using any of the modes in any key keeps you in that key. In B Locrian (or G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, etc.) you are still in KEY of C Major -- no sharps or flats.

I can start a bass line using the first 3 notes of the B Locrian scale, and then, if I walk up the scale, my guitarist can join in in E Phrygian. After the first 3 notes, they are identical. The modes aren't about the notes -- any mode in the same key will have the same notes. The notes are about relation. They allow you to throw in some new intervals in the same key by starting from a new root note -- say A instead of C. Using the key of C starting from an A, you have new intervals to work with, in this case, a natural minor scale versus a major scale.



Now, I was barely taught scales (just enough to memorize their fingerings) before I stopped taking lessons, and have just been learning on my own since then, so I'll submit to somebody else who can say that I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure I hit most of it.

 

[Stick_Player]

If I understand correctly (and tell me if I don't) using any of the modes in any key keeps you in that key. In B Locrian (or G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, etc.) you are still in KEY of C Major -- no sharps or flats.

I can start a bass line using the first 3 notes of the B Locrian scale, and then, if I walk up the scale, my guitarist can join in in E Phrygian. After the first 3 notes, they are identical. The modes aren't about the notes -- any mode in the same key will have the same notes. The notes are about relation. They allow you to throw in some new intervals in the same key by starting from a new root note -- say A instead of C. Using the key of C starting from an A, you have new intervals to work with, in this case, a natural minor scale versus a major scale.

I do NOT hear that, for instance, E Phrygian is NOT in the 'Key of C Major'. Yes, the Key Signatures LOOK the same, but they do not sound the same. E Phrygian firmly has E as the home tone. If you play the examples I posted you will hear what some of the Modes sound like.

For me, when a key is established, such as C Major, a scalar line built on a note other than C, does not qualify it as one of the Seven Named Modes. I would refer to it as a numbered-mode-of-that-Major-scale. An example would be (in the key of C Major), a series of notes: F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F - I don't hear this as F Lydian (F is not the home tone), rather I hear it as the fourth-mode-of-C-Major (if it truly needs a label). But seriously, how often would you find ALL seven notes played in series? Well, maybe a college jazzbo solo.

This works the same if a key is firmly established, such as G Mixolydian. A series of notes, such as, C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C are NOT C Major/Ionian within G Mixolydian, nor is a series of notes B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B a B Locrian within G Mixolydian.

By the way, a Natural Minor Scale is NOT the same as the Aeolian Mode.

Often, music composed in a Minor Key will have a raised seventh tone - making it the Leading Tone, also creating a V7 chord. There may also be a raised sixth tone. The chords will function differently than an Aeolian mode. You will NOT find a V7(b9) chord in the Aeolian Mode.

There are also Modes related to the Harmonic Minor Scale that can be useful - especially the Fifth-Mode-of-the-Harmonic-Minor Scale.

Building off this scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A (A Harmonic Minor)- pedal a low E, add an E Major chord on top, and play this series of notes - E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E. You have the Fifth-Mode-of-the-Harmonic-Minor Scale. This scale is sometimes called a Phrygian Dominant Scale.

 

[SeaBassTheFish]

Too big a topic for me to take on at this time of night. There isn't just one simple answer.

Oh man, talk about the question of the night! 8 pages of dispelling misinformation only to reveal the true question of what it's all about.

Folks, if you want to learn this stuff, Richard Lindsey is RIGHT ON in his explanations/clarifications, etc.

 

[Russell L]

I think much of this is moot to many situations. I understand modes up and down, yet I don't dwell on them much when playing. I can sit and talk about it all and theorize, but that's more than I want to do when playing. The knowledge of it all just sits in the background for me.