how do modes work, really?

[Stick_Player]

That's a trick question

My remarks are aimed at your qualifying statement of what a "good" soloist does. It might mislead some people away from otherwise exploring something that imho is very valuable.

Well then, we don't disagree - and what you are saying should be added to what skilled improvisers draw from and do.

Yes it was a trick. Referring to So What, I can say that not only do Miles and PC draw notes from the Dorian mode, they also draw from the Melodic Minor scale - there are incidences of 'C#s' in their lines during the D Minor sections. And, there are some chromatic passing tones in PC's lines, as well. This composition certainly could be said to be in Dorian, with the noted exceptions.

I haven't studied in detail what Coltrane, Cannonball or Evans are doing.

 

[FretlessMainly]

Then again, as the leading-tone, a C# almost always works anyway; by that I mean that if you throw a C# instead of a C onto D dorian, it could be construed as "drawing on the melodic minor scale" or it could just be dorian with a leading-tone. Either way, you get the same thing; I'm just wondering how Miles or Mr. PC were actually thinking about it.

 

[henry2513]

Well then, we don't disagree - and what you are saying should be added to what skilled improvisers draw from and do.

Yes it was a trick. Referring to So What, I can say that not only do Miles and PC draw notes from the Dorian mode, they also draw from the Melodic Minor scale - there are incidences of 'C#s' in their lines during the D Minor sections. And, there are some chromatic passing tones in PC's lines, as well. This composition certainly could be said to be in Dorian, with the noted exceptions.

I haven't studied in detail what Coltrane, Cannonball or Evans are doing.

I'm just starting to an in-depth look in what Coltrane was doing once more. I'm getting a different perspective now that I'm more mature as a player (nice way to say I'm older lol).

 

[Groove Master]

Actually, not so. Functional harmony is taught perfectly well starting with triads, and has been for centuries. Certainly 7ths and 6ths can add useful info, but they aren't necessary for defining function.

Then how would you analyse a chord progression of C to F or C to G without the 7th in one of the chord?

There is no way to determine just by the chords motion what is what. It could be I to IV or V to I in the first example and it could be in #2 I to V or IV to I.

That was my point in regards with an answer I was giving to the OP regarding his C to A progression ,if you took the time to read it carefully.

 

[AndyMania]

Sorry for going a little off topic in regards to Coltrane and Miles but I tried playing the modes with all of them having the same root note. I tried C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phyrigian, etc......I really didn't hear that much difference between C Dorian and C Aeolian. The raised 6th in Dorian really doesnt have that much effect on my ears. C Locrian and Phyrigian sounded cool. C Mixolydian and C Ionian didn't have much difference either. Nor did the raised 4th in Lydian mode. Unless my ears are screwed up, the differences seem subtle. The most noticeable difference to me seems between major and minor 3rd. That 3rd for some reason has a pretty big impact.

-Andy

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Then how would you analyse a chord progression of C to F or C to G without the 7th in one of the chord?

There is no way to determine just by the chords motion what is what. It could be I to IV or V to I in the first example and it could be in #2 I to V or IV to I.

That was my point in regards with an answer I was giving to the OP regarding his C to A progression ,if you took the time to read it carefully.

By looking at context, as you always do. Of course there is a way to see what's going on with triads, if you look at the whole shape of things.

Really, look at a harmony textbook, say, Piston's. Take a look at Bach's chorales. I'm not saying anything really out there. This stuff has been explained this way for literally centuries. If you want to tell Bach or Mozart that his harmonic functions couldn't be determined because he didn't use 7ths in every chord, be my guest, but you really won't get very far. It's a stone cold fact that you can tell the harmonic functions of that music quite easily, and it's equally a fact that you can do this with triads. Shoot, for that matter, just listen to a Hank Williams song.

There is a lot of music out there that doesn't use 7ths very much, yet the harmonic functions are perfectly clear. Forgive me, but what you're saying sounds like sort of a jazz teacher's perspective. I understand that perspective, but not everything is jazz.

Here's one example of how this is done with triads:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_function

Yeah, I know it's Wikipedia, but it's not far from what I and thousands of other musicians were taught in harmony class.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Sorry for going a little off topic in regards to Coltrane and Miles but I tried playing the modes with all of them having the same root note. I tried C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phyrigian, etc......I really didn't hear that much difference between C Dorian and C Aeolian. The raised 6th in Dorian really doesnt have that much effect on my ears. C Locrian and Phyrigian sounded cool. C Mixolydian and C Ionian didn't have much difference either. Nor did the raised 4th in Lydian mode. Unless my ears are screwed up, the differences seem subtle. The most noticeable difference to me seems between major and minor 3rd. That 3rd for some reason has a pretty big impact.

-Andy

Then keep playing them. Then try harmonizing each degree of each mode, and see what chords you come up with. Then try writing a progression that uses only chords from a given mode. Then try writing a melody that has only notes from that mode.

 

[Groove Master]

By looking at context, as you always do. Of course there is a way to see what's going on with triads, if you look at the whole shape of things.

Really, look at a harmony textbook, say, Piston's. I'm not saying anything really out there. It has been done this way for literally centuries. If you want to tell Bach or Mozart that his harmonic functions couldn't be determined because he didn't use 7ths in every chord, be my guest, but you really won't get very far. It's a stone cold fact that you can tell the harmonic functions of that music quite easily, and it's equally a fact that you can do this with triads. Shoot, for that matter, just listen to a Hank Williams song.

There is a lot of music out there that doesn't use 7ths very much, yet the harmonic functions are perfectly clear. Forgive me, but what you're saying sounds like sort of a jazz teacher's perspective. I understand that perspective, but not everything is jazz.

I know all that Richard and my point is not to say that music should have 4 parts chords minimum. My point is to give some answers or point of analysis in a forum like this where there is no parameters such as melody,key signatures,chords structure or forms involved in the discussions. Again, if you take my 2 examples before cold as they are, there is no way to determine what are the functions of those triads if you don't have the melody, the key signature or the chords structure unless you know which one is the dominant or the tonic.

 

[AndyMania]

Then keep playing them. Then try harmonizing each degree of each mode, and see what chords you come up with. Then try writing a progression that uses only chords from a given mode. Then try writing a melody that has only notes from that mode.

Richard,

Can you give me an example of what you mean by this?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I know all that Richard and my point is not to say that music should have 4 parts chords minimum. My point is to give some answers or point of analysis in a forum like this where there is no parameters such as melody,key signatures,chords structure or forms involved in the discussions. Again, if you take my 2 examples before cold as they are, there is no way to determine what are the functions of those triads if you don't have the melody, the key signature or the chords structure unless you know which one is the dominant or the tonic.

I hear you.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Richard,

Can you give me an example of what you mean by this?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you don't know what I mean by harmonizing a scale, then there are probably some things that would benefit you more than modes right now. See, among others JTE's post #86 in this very thread. This isn't a putdown, it just means that sometimes it's easier to learn stuff when you've learned certain other things first.

But anyway, since you asked, I mean build chords on each of the degrees of the mode.

Start with triads. If you have A dorian, A B C D E F# G, then your chords are as follows:

A C E (A minor)
B D F# (B minor)
C E G (C major)
D F# A (D major)
E G B (E minor)
F# A C (F# dim--note that I mean diminished in the strict sense of a diminished triad, not the common sense of a diminished 7th chord)
G B D (G major)

Then do it with 7th chords:

A C E G (Am7)
B D F# A (Bm7)
C E G B (Cmaj7)
D F# A C (D7)
E G B D (Em7)
F# A C E (F#m7b5 or half-diminished)
G B D F# (G major)

Then generate progressions and melodies from these chords that have Am(7) as the home base. You can of course mix triads and 7ths chords as you like. This should help give you a sense of what it sounds like to be playing "in" a mode.

 

[Stick_Player]

Sorry for going a little off topic in regards to Coltrane and Miles but I tried playing the modes with all of them having the same root note. I tried C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phyrigian, etc......I really didn't hear that much difference between C Dorian and C Aeolian. The raised 6th in Dorian really doesnt have that much effect on my ears. C Locrian and Phyrigian sounded cool. C Mixolydian and C Ionian didn't have much difference either. Nor did the raised 4th in Lydian mode. Unless my ears are screwed up, the differences seem subtle. The most noticeable difference to me seems between major and minor 3rd. That 3rd for some reason has a pretty big impact.

-Andy

As Richard Lindsey says, harmonize the scales. You can find examples of pieces of music that are in different modes on the internet.

I posted one (the image disappeared, though) called Beggar Boy. It's an 18th century tune, clearly in a Phrygian mode.

Running modes, in scales, will not give you as strong of an affect as progressions that are strongly 'rooted' with a tonic or home-chord of the Mode.

Here is an example of [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

I think that what you are experiencing is supporting my believe that the term 'modes' is being misused nowadays. The whole piece, or at least a section, needs to be in a Mode, to experience the affect - not just a scale-mode for two beats, then off to another scale-mode.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I think that what you are experiencing is supporting my believe that the term 'modes' is being misused nowadays. The whole piece, or at least a section, needs to be in a Mode, to experience the affect - not just a scale-mode for two beats, then off to another scale-mode.

I agree. It seems the whole idea of modality has gotten hopelessly mixed up with the concept of *chord-scales*, to the point where a lot of players are convinced that even in perfectly diatonic chord progressions, they have to come up with a different chord-scale for every chord (even when doing so adds absolutely no new diatonic harmonic options), and that chord-scale has to be a mode. It just ain't so.

There are places where a predominantly chord-scale approach might prove useful. Navigating basic functional harmony isn't one of them.

 

[Stick_Player]

I agree. It seems the whole idea of modality has gotten hopelessly mixed up with the concept of *chord-scales*, to the point where a lot of players are convinced that even in perfectly diatonic chord progressions, they have to come up with a different chord-scale for every chord (even when doing so adds absolutely no new diatonic harmonic options), and that chord-scale has to be a mode. It just ain't so.

There are places where a predominantly chord-scale approach might prove useful. Navigating basic functional harmony isn't one of them.

Exactly.

 

[Russell L]

I think JTE's reply on page 5 says it all.

 

[AndyMania]

Richard,

I already know about the harmonizing like you stated. (wasnt clear by the term harmonizing for some stupid reason). However, isnt building triads off of each step in A dorian technically the exact same thing as building triads off of the G Major scale? You would hear G in all those no?

 

[Stick_Player]

Richard,

I already know about the harmonizing like you stated. (wasnt clear by the term harmonizing for some stupid reason). However, isnt building triads off of each step in A dorian technically the exact same thing as building triads off of the G Major scale? You would hear G in all those no?

In A Dorian, the Tonic chord is Am (i). The progression of chords NEED to make the Am sound like the Tonic - the home base chord, the final.

In G Ionian, the Am is a ii chord. Different function and certainly not the Tonic.

A lot of making A Dorian sound like A Dorian (and not G Ionian) is with the rhythmic placement of the chord changes.

You aren't going to find many tunes/songs in Modes other than Ionian in American Popular music. You'll have to dig into other cultures and into the past.

Here's an example of a tune in E Dorian Mode - Not D Major/Ionian. Measures 13 and 14 should be E Minor (NOT E Major), a typo:

I posted a video of a Lydian Mode Tune, in a previous reply. I'll try to find the Phrygian example again.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Richard,

I already know about the harmonizing like you stated. (wasnt clear by the term harmonizing for some stupid reason). However, isnt building triads off of each step in A dorian technically the exact same thing as building triads off of the G Major scale? You would hear G in all those no?

Not quite. Or yes and no. Yes, it's the same set of notes and thus the same set of chords. No, it's not exactly the same thing. The reason is that to establish a key/mode--to be able to say that we are "in" that key or mode, you need TWO things. Yes, you need (1) a specific set of notes, and thus chords, but you also need (2) a specific tonal center. It takes both to establish a key or mode. The same set of notes with a different tonal center isn't the same key any more. So when you're relating the same set of chords to a different tonal center, they sound different and work differently.

See Stick_Player's example. Even though the note palette being used is the same as the note palette for D major, the tonal center is different--it's clearly E, not D. Therefore, you are not truly in D major but in E dorian.

 

[AndyMania]

Im gonna study the examples. Still a little confused about the tonal centers. If I wander from the 1 position of A Dorian and progress to lets say, the 3rd position (CEG), arent I technically changing tonal centers since C E G will give me a C major sound....Its almost as if each triad in the scale has its own tonal center.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Im gonna study the examples. Still a little confused about the tonal centers. If I wander from the 1 position of A Dorian and progress to lets say, the 3rd position (CEG), arent I technically changing tonal centers since C E G will give me a C major sound....Its almost as if each triad in the scale has its own tonal center.

No no no. Forget about modes for the minute. Think about the key of C. In that key, C is your tonal center, and this is true even when you're playing chords other than C that are within that key, like Am, F, G7. It's the totality of how those chords work that establishes what the tonal center actually is. When you do a I-vi-ii-V in C, you don't change to a different tonal center. Tonal center is about key (or "mode-as-key").

You're confusing the root of each individual chord with the tonal center of the musical piece or sequence. Every chord has its own root, but multiple chords can be part of the same key (and hence relate to the same tonal center).