how do modes work, really?

[John Wentzien]

You can get the same info from Chord-tone studies...and it won't confuse you so much.

 

[Groove Master]

**** yeah! I gots me some modes!

After making this thread and reading all your thoughts and methods and much of BassyBill's thread, I sat down tonight just went at it. Wow!!! I think I hit the tip of the iceberg right there! so excited. Thank you guys!!!

I think the best advice to go along with the explanations for me was when someone said to start a loop on your pedal (or whatever you have) and just play over top. That's what made it for me.

So much more understanding.

Alright, now how about this; I wrote one pattern that I was able to find two major scales that it fit into and they didn't fit into each other (Cmaj and Amaj.) They both sound pretty good, but each has a "bum" note in it.
How would you guys know which one to choose?

Thank you so much for your replies and patience, guys!

To really know the harmonic function of a chord it needs at least 4 notes(1-3-5-7 or 6).

In your case of C and A it is very Beatles btw and more often then not it implies some blues harmony which is another very interesting and vast subject.. Even if it is only triads, I suspect the A to sound like a A7. If you feel like it is two Major 7 chords then it could be consider like a symetric or parallel harmony and then you can play both chords as Lydian or a mix of Ionian and Lydian.

 

[Chris K]

Well I disagree. Those other modalities are *inherent* in major tonality. They are based on, and derived from, the major scale, and I see all of those modes as part and parcel to that tonality.

Wrong.
Check up on music history before posting on modes, please.

The major scale is (only) one of the classic modes (the Ionian).
All modes are based on the diatonic system of the notes ABCDEFG. There is no real basic mode, but f there was, it would obviously be the Aeolian.

 

[Chris K]

IMHO modes are for the solo instrument.
Chord tones are for the accompaniment instrument.

As most of us play chord tones when accompanying and only go to modes when we get a lead break......

Are you getting lead breaks? If so work on modes, if not, wait until you do.

Of course IMHO.

Modes are also a useful composition tool. If a piece is based on a mode, the bass player should know his business.

 

[Chris K]

You should probably look into modes again. Try playing that C Maj scale while another instrument plays a d min chord, or an e min chord, or a F Maj chord and so on. That's when the magic happens.

Magic, perhaps, but modes? All scales and chords you mention are built of the same notes ABCDEFG.

Ehm… you did notice the option of starting a (the same) scale on various intervals, I hope.

 

[Chris K]

There's a lot of misunderstanding of modes here - as well as misinformation.

If anyone can, after playing this, convince me that it's not in a Phrygian mode, but 'really' just D Major, there's a special prize waiting for you.

By the way, I do NOT subscribe to the jazzbo teaching method of assigning a different mode to every chord in a tune.

What kind of statue would you like, bronze or stone? Marble?

 

[Chris K]

Hey guys,
Modes each have there own personality… to really get into this don’t practice them like this… C Ionian for a little while, D Dorian for a few minutes, E Phrygian for a few more etc etc. Practice them over a drone, for example use your E string as a drone, first play E Ionian, then E Dorian, next E Phrygian etc etc. That way you start to learn the ‘sound’ of the mode.

As for what are modes??? In simple terms think of it like this…

Any major scale has 7 notes… Easy!

Each note of the major scale has a chord built from it…

Each chord has a corresponding scale... these are the modes.

So there’s a little more to it than that but once you get your head round ‘what’ the modes are then you can start to learn them and there individual sounds.

Piece a cake!!!

Scott.

Free Online Bass Lessons - Scott's Bass Lessons
Link Removed

Excellent exercise.

 

[Chris K]

Modes are really easy.
Its just another way to play a scale.

Take a scale any scale. Start on the first note and play all the notes in that scale up to the next octave.

Congratulations you just played The IONIAN mode of that scale.

Now Start on the second note of that same scale. Play all the notes of that scale up to the octave of your starting note.

Congratulations you just played the DORIAN mode of that scale.

See it's easy.

Keep going.

Start on the 3rd note of the scale and run up an octvae, only playing the notes in the original scale. HAHA PHRYGIAN mode of that scale.

Mambo4 has listed the order of the modes, so now you know what it all is.

WHY do we talk about modes?
Thats another thread.

And once you got it (after say, five minutes?) try to play all modes starting on the same note

(sorry JTE, I see now you already pointed this out)

 

[Chris K]

Also, didn't the modes come way before tempered tuning?

They did. Tempered tuning washed them away in a flood of chromaticness.

It has already been mentioned that the modes are a diatonic system.

Some posters some to have trouble understanding the meaning of 'diatonic'.

Since chromatic music is non-diatonic, it cannot be modal.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

To really know the harmonic function of a chord it needs at least 4 notes(1-3-5-7 or 6).

Actually, not so. Functional harmony is taught perfectly well starting with triads, and has been for centuries. Certainly 7ths and 6ths can add useful info, but they aren't necessary for defining function.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

As a practical example of modality, here's an Irish traditional tune. I used to play a version of this tune years ago in a Celtic band. Musicians often play these kinds of tunes slightly differently, depending on who the are, where they come from, and whom they learned the tune from (which is why you'll see some differences in detail and nuance in different transcriptions), but this is a pretty representative version as far as I can tell. As they fiddler points out, it starts out in A dorian and then slips briefly into A major (actually, I'd say A mixolydian, because I didn't hear any G# in there). The note set he's working from is A B C D E F# G, with A clearly the tonal center. The appearance of the C# in one of the later parts signals a momentary shift to A mixolydian.

YouTube - ‪Irish Fiddle Lessons - Farewell To Ireland - Ian Walsh‬‏

 

[Stick_Player]

For me, a mode must have a clear tonic - I or i (or even iº).

In the example I posted, the clear tonic is F# and the mode is Phrygian.

When I hear that one is to match a so-called mode to a chord, then a different mode to the next chord, these are NOT modes in the traditional sense. This seems to be the way jazz improvisation is taught - bad teaching technique and is misinformation at best. No great soloist/improviser can be thinking this way.

As far as labeling/assigning pitch-collections/scales, I prefer to base them off of ONE scale (the scale of the tonic). If one really needs to give each pitch-collection/scale a separate name, refer to them as the Second Mode of the tonic scale, Fifth Mode of the tonic scale, etc.

An example would be, using a iim7-V7-I chord progressing in C Major:

Chord: iim7 (Dm7), Scale: 2nd Mode of C Major.
Chord: V7 (G7), Scale: 5th Mode of C Major.
Chord: I (C), Scale: 1st Mode of C Major.

NOT Dorian followed by Mixolydian followed by Ionian. This is limiting, misleading and misinforming. And you WILL sound like you are running scales for each chord (i. e., college jazzbo solo).

The example I used (many posts back that appears to not be loading anymore), is CLEARLY in F# Phrygian. The tonic is F#m (i). The phrase resolutions end on this F# Minor chord. The progression of the chords - all indicate F# Phrygian. The piece feels Phrygian.

If I hear a D chord (VI in F# Phrygian), the scale (or better, a collection of pitches) is best labeled "the Sixth mode of F# Phrygian" - NOT "D Ionian".

A lot of this doesn't apply if you are playing Blues or heavily chromatic music, but works well with music composed in a Mode.

 

[Billnc]

NOT Dorian followed by Mixolydian followed by Ionian. This is limiting, misleading and misinforming. And you WILL sound like you are running scales for each chord (i. e., college jazzbo solo).

I agree with the rest of your post. But is this really how jazz is taught in colleges? I've only ever taken private lessons, from jazzers, and not one has mentioned modes for soloing. Always chord tones, approaches and substitutions etc.

 

[Stick_Player]

I agree with the rest of your post. But is this really how jazz is taught in colleges? I've only ever taken private lessons, from jazzers, and not one has mentioned modes for soloing. Always chord tones, approaches and substitutions etc.

I think a good amount is. Good to hear you weren't subjected to it. Look at some of the previous posts and you'll see what I mean.

You are correct (private lessons, from jazzers, and not one has mentioned modes for soloing. Always chord tones, approaches and substitutions etc.) that good soloists don't think this way of assigning a scale to each successive chord. It's cumbersome and you are not using your ear, rather your eyes or a page from your theory assignment.

I also believe that a good soloist first starts with the melody then to variations, and "chord tones, approaches and substitutions", as you stated.

 

[henry2513]

I think a good amount is. Good to hear you weren't subjected to it. Look at some of the previous posts and you'll see what I mean.

You are correct (private lessons, from jazzers, and not one has mentioned modes for soloing. Always chord tones, approaches and substitutions etc.) that good soloists don't think this way of assigning a scale to each successive chord. It's cumbersome and you are not using your ear, rather your eyes or a page from your theory assignment.

I also believe that a good soloist first starts with the melody then to variations, and "chord tones, approaches and substitutions", as you stated.

Oh I guess John Coltrane didn't know what he was doing afterall...thanks for setting us straight.

 

[Stick_Player]

Oh I guess John Coltrane didn't know what he was doing afterall...thanks for setting us straight.

Want to clarify? I felt Coltrane knew what he was doing. Perhaps you have some insight you'd like to share?

By the way, I CAN set you straight on this: it's after all - two words.

I hope you don't spell chords the way you spell English words.

 

[henry2513]

Want to clarify? I felt Coltrane knew what he was doing. Perhaps you have some insight you'd like to share?

By the way, I CAN set you straight on this: it's after all - two words.

I hope you don't spell chords the way you spell English words.

Thanks for the grammar lesson, it comes much appreciated. I'm sure you well know how Coltrane approached and utilized modes in his playing.

In case you don't or anyone else is curious, his modal approach changed his style, take a look at Kind of Blue. That's probably a good place to start and it's referenced almost everywhere you care to look regarding this.

 

[Stick_Player]

Thanks for the grammar lesson, it comes much appreciated. I'm sure you well know how Coltrane approached and utilized modes in his playing.

In case you don't or anyone else is curious, his modal approach changed his style, take a look at Kind of Blue. That's probably a good place to start and it's referenced almost everywhere you care to look regarding this.

You are welcome for the spelling lesson - no charge.

Did I say that Coltrane did NOT use modes? Or that the so-called modal tunes on Kinda Blue did not utilze modes?

I don't have Coltrane's solo from So What in front of me, so I'll refrain from comment, but I can tell you that both Miles and Chambers did NOT only use D Dorian/Eb Dorian to draw their selection of notes on So What. But YOU probably already knew this.

What mode are they using in Freddie Freeloader?

 

[Marc Piane]

Methinks it goes back further than old J.S.

Music of ancient Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[henry2513]

You are welcome for the spelling lesson - no charge.

Did I say that Coltrane did NOT use modes? Or that the so-called modal tunes on Kinda Blue did not utilze modes?

I don't have Coltrane's solo from So What in front of me, so I'll refrain from comment, but I can tell you that both Miles and Chambers did NOT only use D Dorian/Eb Dorian to draw their selection of notes on So What. But YOU probably already knew this.

What mode are they using in Freddie Freeloader?

That's a trick question

My remarks are aimed at your qualifying statement of what a "good" soloist does. It might mislead some people away from otherwise exploring something that imho is very valuable.