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How is Cliff Burton overrated?

#23
Jaswine85 said:
i MUST address this issue/accusation of sloppiness!!
Cliff was not sloppy at all, in fact he was very precise. Perhaps a lil green on Kill Em All but other then that, no way. Sometimes his live solos were loose, but thats half the point, jam that crap out!

THIS is the reason you think he is sloppy: he played very hard. I forget the term, but finger plucking so hard the string hits the frets and makes a clanking noise was one of his stylistic, *intentional* trademarks. It helps a finger picker cut thru the metal mix.
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No, he was sloppy because if you listen to his solo tracks on youtube it's very clear that his placement of notes in relation to the beat is quite bad. Steve Harris has the same 'click-like' tone, but he's spot on with the drummer 100% of the time. Of course, Nikko is a much better drummer than Lars, so I can't say it was all Cliff with the tempo errors.

The boy had chops though. He had a unique style and definitely had talents as a song writer, but as an actual player he was above average at best.
 
#25
Bc James himself had Cliff join the band "because he sounded nothing (really) like bass", maybe? They wanted a 3rd guitar-type player and helped to invent/progress the "wall of sound" approach so many took in the early 80's. They succeeded. However guys like Ellefson were taking a more traditional approach and actually played w/ the drums like a rhythm section. That's why I listen to old school Mave Jr. when I want some really cool bass-friendly stuff. Cliff to me was lost between bass and classical guitar.

So y u mad bro? I don't know who, why, and how players are "rated" anyway and whoTF has the "official" handbook so it's all just small talk and nonsensical internet BS in the first place. If you're butthurdt someone doesn't like your fave band/player then you probably should log off immediately.

also, anyone you've heard on the radio isn't "overrated" compared to anyone here... b/c we aren't "rated" at all... LOL
 
#28
Tupac said:
. Not to mention bassists were given almost no attention back then (besides good ol' Geddy), yet he had to balls to take center stage. How is he overrated?
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Yeah, you're right. Nobody ever gave Paul McCartney, Jack Bruce, John Entwistle, John Paul Jones, Geezer Butler, Phil Lynott, James Jamerson any credit until Cliff Burton played with Metallica. (Should I name any other bassists)

Give me a break!
 
#29
I don't get the complaints against sloppiness. First off, ALL OF METALLICA WAS EXTREMELY SLOPPY BACK THEN!!!!!!!!! They weren't going for perfection. They were trying to really rock and HAVE FUN. Go watch the videos. Jame's voice was all over the place, Kirk was really spastic and off alot, and it was anyones guess what tempo Lars would be at. I couldn't deal with those conditions and be perfect, and I doubt if anyone else would have an easy time.

Number two on my list, I don't get the "only famous because he died". Back in '83 both my parents went to see Metallica's first huge tour. My mom even specifically went to see Cliff play. My dad being a guitarist had definitely heard of Cliff by then, but even my highly non-musical mother and all of her friends knew what a beast that Burton was.

Number three and the most important THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE BEST BASS PLAYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That would be like the world's best painter or the best NFL player of all time. The role does not exist. Music is an expression, not a contest. That actually explains Cliff perfectly. He was not the flashiest or the most technical player in the world, but He expressed himself and HAD FUN DOING IT. Isn't that what playing bass is about? Having fun? I feel sorry for anyone who decided to pick up an instrument not for joy of playing it.
 
#30
Nev375 said:
Cliff Burton is what he is. But after encountering so many of his fans who appear to be close enough in IQ to Beavis and Butthead that one could count the difference in scores on one finger, I would rather say that his fans, generally speaking, are overrated.*

* this statement in no way asserts any judgment whatsoever upon the judgment of the O.P. We can and should assume that he or she is among the exceptional in the group of identified individuals and possesses fine clarity of perception and taste in matters of audible artistry required to make such assertions as demonstrated above.
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LOL! :D :p

MM
 
#32
I personally think he kinda hid behind distortion and wah. Anyone can sound like cliff burton if you put a big muff in your signal chain and play really fast. And his tone without the distortion (which is rare live but you can hear it in some isolated bass tracks) was god-awful. Trebly, clickity-clackity, indistinguishable nonsense. He basically copied Geezer Butler note-for-note, only Geezer Butler had a much better overall sound and talent.

That being said, he's probably inspired a lot of bassists, had some great melodic bass parts, and really helped bring bass playing into the spotlight in a time and genre where bass players weren't really respected. I don't hate the guy, but he is absolutely 100% overrated.
 
#33
Tupac said:
Not to mention bassists were given almost no attention back then (besides good ol' Geddy), yet he had to balls to take center stage.
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"Back then"? You make it sound like the Dark Ages... :rolleyes:

If you had been on the planet "back then", you would know better than to post this statement. The late 70s and early 80s, in my observation, marked a MAJOR breakthrough for the electric bass, in multiple genres. Players like Paul McCartney, Jack Bruce and John Entwistle had already been making their mark for well over a decade. By the late 70s, players like Chris Squire, Jaco Pastorius, and Stanley Clarke were taking it all to unprecedented levels. Jaws were dropping all over the place. I know. I was there and I recall it all very vividly.

By the early 80s, it seems that monster bassists were everywhere, i.e. Mark King, Billy Sheehan, etc. As a result, the bass guitar has enjoyed a much more prominent role in rock, pop and electric jazz music ever since.

As for Cliff Burton, I think he's overrated only relative to the entire musical environment in which he lived and played - something that his many fans tend to conveniently neglect - IF they ever truly comprehended it in the first place... :hmm:

MM
 
#34
Lots of folks think he was sloppy for his studio work, or that his bass tone was garbage, buried his flaws under his distortion, etc., etc.... You gotta remember that he along with the others were a bunch of dudes that were drunk or high off their asses most hours of the day playing in a Metal band. You think he was gonna sound like Stanley Clarke, lol....

While he did leave much to be desired in the studio, the man not to be fecked with live; this goes for his rhythm bass work as well. Like Motorhead pointed out above, Metallica sounded like horse manure live until about '88 or so, but Burton sounded as solid doing his rhythm stuff as he was at lead. I really think he would've shined tremendously though if his work wasn't just with Metallica. He sounded like he would be as proficient (if not better) in a Jazz or Fusion type genre besides playing Metal. The constant power chord driven, guitar heavy work of Metallica IMO really put a dampener on what he was really capable of. He could improvise some amazing basslines and solos in songs, all while retaining his role as a bassist; The third guitarist thing is a ridiculous label, IMO...

I wish I could upload some of the work I'm specifically talking about but check out some of his stuff on YouTube, and not that Guitar Hero stuff; I'm talking about when his live work in '85-'86. Here's a solo that I always like:

Metallica - Cliff Burton's Solo (Live 1986 Cape Girardeau) - YouTube

He wasn't no Sheehan or Harris, but with the way he performed I think deserved to have his name up there as a great one.
 
#35
I'm on the fence with the guy and whether or not he is overrated because the entire environment (the music, mentality, etc) doesn't really allow for impartial judgment. I think part of his reputation comes from the fact that he was in the most popular metal band in the world. Hell, when I was younger and in Metallica, I thought Hammet's "One" solo and Ulrich's double-bass work were the best thing since corn beef hash and that these guys were masters of technical proficiency.

If the sole criterion is to play the role and play it well, then sure, Burton was properly rated. I base my opinion on so much more than that, however.
 
#36
jmattbassplaya said:
No, he was sloppy because if you listen to his solo tracks on youtube it's very clear that his placement of notes in relation to the beat is quite bad. Steve Harris has the same 'click-like' tone, but he's spot on with the drummer 100% of the time. Of course, Nikko is a much better drummer than Lars, so I can't say it was all Cliff with the tempo errors.

The boy had chops though. He had a unique style and definitely had talents as a song writer, but as an actual player he was above average at best.
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As you mentioned... they didn't exactly play with the same caliber of drummer. Steve Harris got to play with Nicko McBrain and earlier, Clive Burr. Cliff Burton had to play with Lars Ulrich.

Having just done some recording working around a less than exceptional drummer, I learned that if the drum tracks have inconsistent timing, the bass track solo'd will sound like it does too if it locks in with the drums.
 
#38
UnfortunateTony said:
I personally think he kinda hid behind distortion and wah. Anyone can sound like cliff burton if you put a big muff in your signal chain and play really fast. And his tone without the distortion (which is rare live but you can hear it in some isolated bass tracks) was god-awful. Trebly, clickity-clackity, indistinguishable nonsense. He basically copied Geezer Butler note-for-note, only Geezer Butler had a much better overall sound and talent.

That being said, he's probably inspired a lot of bassists, had some great melodic bass parts, and really helped bring bass playing into the spotlight in a time and genre where bass players weren't really respected. I don't hate the guy, but he is absolutely 100% overrated.
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I dunno, I find that distortion and wah tend to exaggerate errors rather than hide them. That's why I don't get the "hiding behind" criticism. In my experience, making an error playing clean just makes a clickish sound, or some other hardly noticeable noise. But when you're on distortion and wah... noise and feedback city if you screw up.

As for his clean tone... he had a different ensemble tone on each record. Which one are you talking about? I'd hardly call the MoP bass tone trebly.
 
#39
sevenyearsdown said:
He didn't do anything that Geezer didn't already do a decade before him.
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This. +100.

And mind you, I like and respect Cliff Burton...but as far as traditional bass playing goes (e.g., playing with the kick, snare, and hat, providing the roots and fifths, supplementing the guitars and "glueing" the drums and guitars together)...well, Jason Newsted was as good, and sometimes even better.
 

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