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How much power is REALLY needed on stage?

#61
KJung said:
This topic is near and dear to my heart. As a few others have posted above... it depends. It depends on so many things that there is no answer to the question.

If you love a deep, deep tone that requires a cab with only moderate sensitivity (i.e., deep low end extension way down low), and you play quite loud, you might need a shocking amoung of power and cone area (i.e., 1000 watts and 2 x 212 or something) to be as loud as another guy who digs in at the bridge on a passive J bass with the bridge pickup solo'd, and can scream with a 112 and 200 watts.

Technique has a lot do do with it also. If you are a slapper, it is amazing how much power and cone area you can need to propel a nice, open, non compressed, deeply voiced 'thump' through a dense mix on a large stage.

I guess an overly simplified answer as a guideline is that for typical fingerstyle playing without a ton of low end boosted, 300-500 watts into a 212 or 410 will do probably 90% of the gigs on earth... from loud bar gigs with no PA support, to large stages with PA support but minimal bass support in the monitors. If you like a particularly midrangey tone... subtract a driver or two and a 100 watts or two. If you really like the deep boom and/or use aggressive technique and like a reasonably clean tone, add a couple hundred watts and a couple of drivers!
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Nice summation. I am finding for most of my bar gigs, where I get a bit of PA support, I like ~500 W and at least a 2x12.
 
#62
Electricblue said:
Just for general research really.

Ive heard some people on here say that their 1200w stack gets drowned out by drums, others say they have used a 15w GUITAR amp with drums...

Here to find some answers, so feel free to give some input. :hyper:
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I think EQ is as important as power. I spent a long time building patches in my foot pedal to cut thru the mix and it worked. I played outdoors with my 4-1x15" cabinets and a Carvin 1200 watt head and couldn't turn up above 3 on the master volume. That is outdoor at a motorcycle race track. Too much low end and you are a gonner.
 
#63
I use a DB750 and 2 4x10 cabs for most every gig. If I need less power I just turn down. If I want huge juice and dynamics, I turn up and adjust the volume via hand technique. I've never been upset to have too much power, only too little. Especially since I play 5 or 6 string for 95% of my gigs, I really need some power in reserve for crisp thick B string action.

The truth is though that with just using a BagEnd 2x10 w the coax I have enough power for any gig I've played where there is sound reinforcement.
 
#64
There is no one answer.

I use a 180 watt head. I also use mid-heavy EQ and like my tone overdriven. Through a 2x15 or 4x12, it's incredibly loud.

So, for my purposes, the answer is 180 watts.

Someone who liked a way different tone than I do, clean, and heavy on the lows, might find 180 watts insufficient, even through a large cab. Also, some people don't like to haul enormous cabs, and so they might want something that can get high up in volume in a smaller package.
 
#65
eSmith said:
Well Pat, I suppose I could be wrong. I got it from this textbook, you should get in touch with these people and tell them you consider them and all the expirence they have is just a myth.

http://www.amazon.com/Live-Sound-Reinforcement-Mix-Audio/dp/0918371074[/URL
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There are some misconceptions that should be cleared up. First, I don't know who wrote that book, but if that "formula" is in there then I think they've done a disservice to their reading audience. There is NO educated audio professional in the world that should suggest using that formula as a general guide or otherwise, unless that are trying to pull one over on you (or trying to sell books). The reasons have already been stated by other posters in this thread. If your looking for a foundation in audio concepts a good book to get started with is the [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforcement-Handbook-Yamaha-Products/dp/0881889008/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299283098&sr=1-1"]Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.
Sure you like lots of headroom, I'm sure everyone would love 10,000 watts of spare overhead ready to unleash on the unsuspecting masses but the reality is that simply isn't required regardless of your personal preferances.
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I agree that it's unlikely that 10,000 watts is probably unnecessary in a bass rig, but to be fair I never stated that much power was needed. However, that much power (and even much, much more) may be necessary in many pro audio reinforcement applications. It depends on many factors: audience size and dimension, SPL requirements and desired coverage, not to mention the loudspeakers being used (power handling, impedance, sensitivity, etc.)...the list goes on. Ten thousand wants in Joe's corner tavern (capacity 120) is probably overkill, in the local 600 cap music club it may be just right, in the 12,000 seat amphitheater it may not cut it.

Real world sound guys hate people like you because that overhead you covet so much is just you sabotaging the mix and giving the sound crew headaches because your constantly creeping up in the mix whenever you feel you are not loud enough.
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You're making an assumption that I use the "headroom" to just keep turning up the volume as the night goes on. That, to my recollection, has never happened. The headroom is used while I'm playing. For example (just making up numbers for reference), let's say I'm using an average of 100 watts* while I'm playing fingerstyle with an average touch at low to moderate volume. When I play dynamically...really dig in to get some growl or slap/pop to get some snap from the bass my volume may get twice as loud momentarily. Those notes could require a peak in power output up to ten times the average power output...that's 1,000 watts. The power isn't there so that I can play super loud all the time, it's there so I can play dynamically without clipping the amp.

*In reality I'm probably using less power than this most of the time, in which case I'm afforded even more headroom.

My needs may be different than others' due to my instrument, playing technique (I play with a light touch most of the time), musical style (blues, jazz, a little rock and funk), desired tone (clean, crisp and deep...sometimes growly), cabinets utilized (low sensitivity with high power handling and extended low frequency response), dynamics/effects signal chain (no compression or limiting), etc. Players with tube amps don't have the headroom I have in my rig, by design. The lack of headroom (and the tone that comes out of it) is part of the appeal of tube amps. Many players use lower-powered solid state amps and get by with minimal headroom. To each their own.

The OP asked for input, since mine is on the extreme end of what is typical, I provided it.

I have been on both sides of the mixing board, and have not have any significant problems with the engineers or bands that I've worked with. At the level of music that I've been involved with, most of the time we're just trying to get through the gig and make it sound the best we can, we don't have big production budgets nor the luxury of making technical rider demands for high-end PA systems. The few times I was able to play or mix through high-powered, properly spec'd systems with plenty of headroom, it was a dream. :)

Changing ohm's of course is going to make a difference. Adding speakers changes the power requirments for sure but not without changing the ohm's so your doing the "My apple tastes different that your orange and I like my apple better" thing. Try the expiriment WITHOUT reducing the ohm's and see what you get.
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I'm not sure what you mean here. The "ohm's" you're referring to is called impedance. Referring to "changing the ohms" is like saying "changing the meters" when referring to length or distance.

In addition to the Yamaha book, if you're looking for accessible information about the live audio side of things you may want to check out the Invalid Link Removed section on Invalid Link Removed. The forums there are pretty active as well, a lot can be learned just by lurking and listening.

On TB forums pay close attention to the posts by Bill Fitzmaurice, Bob from QSC and others, there is a lot to be learned (by me too!) from the experts that take the time to post here.
 
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#66
ive done gigs with a epiphone valve jr.
if i need more power i use my bassman

speekers are more importent. i beleve a bigger area of speekers will give more volume (or so ive heard)
some say tubes have more volume
eq is importent as well

honislty you can argue like this till the cows come home

its about how you play, area of speekers, eq, how loud your band play, the room, the ammount of people, the sensitivity of your cabs, pedal settings, if you want clean or dirty volume and toothpaste
 
#67
Bill Belichick was once asked "How many points do you feel you need to score to win this game?" His answer was "One more than the opponent". His goal is to win the game, yours is to be heard on a stage. You just don't know how many points the stage will score.
 
#68
Not sure if this is helpful, but when you talk about volume, are you talking about hearing yourself onstage, or wanting the crowd to hear you. They aren't necessarily the same thing. I don't give a flip how much wattage the PA has; that's the sound guy's job and they usually can handle things. What you may be talking about is just hearing yourself. I saw a group last weekend where the bassist was using a $5K Conklin 6-stg, but a $300 GK MB112 for his stage monitor. He had the MB112 about 6 feet from his ears. He got what he needed, and the audience got what we needed.
 
#69
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#72
My thoughts on this is that you choose a rig that will cover your worst case scenario. I have found that using my favourite pair of 2x10s driven with up to 700W has covered every gig that I've ever played. It doesn't even enter my head that the rig might prove to be insufficient for the unknown gig I'm heading for. It's very seldom that there is a PA capable of handling my bass. If there was I'd leave that to the sound man.

It seems to be the consensus that there is no definitive answer to the question posed in the OP. I'm in full agreement with that. A few years back I found that, with the couple of gigs a month I was playing, my finger tips were blistered. I lightened my touch and let the amplifier do much more of the work. This solved the painful fingers and my rig actually had an easier time of things.
 
#73
BassmanPaul said:
My thoughts on this is that you choose a rig that will cover your worst case scenario. I have found that using my favourite pair of 2x10s driven with up to 700W has covered every gig that I've ever played. It doesn't even enter my head that the rig might prove to be insufficient for the unknown gig I'm heading for. It's very seldom that there is a PA capable of handling my bass. If there was I'd leave that to the sound man.

It seems to be the consensus that there is no definitive answer to the question posed in the OP. I'm in full agreement with that. A few years back I found that, with the couple of gigs a month I was playing, my finger tips were blistered. I lightened my touch and let the amplifier do much more of the work. This solved the painful fingers and my rig actually had an easier time of things.
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I find that when I can hear myself well, I can play lighter. I've tried to keep a light touch in situations where I'm not loud enough, and no matter how I fight it, I still end up hitting harder as if I will end up hearing myself better. Not worth it. You end up having finger fatigue, play poorly and can't really be on top of your own dynamic.

Therefore I play coffee house gigs with a 2*15 setup and I play a big stage with a 2*15 set up. I do have a volume knob...in fact, several of them.
 
#75
BurningSkies said:
I find that when I can hear myself well, I can play lighter. I've tried to keep a light touch in situations where I'm not loud enough, and no matter how I fight it, I still end up hitting harder as if I will end up hearing myself better. Not worth it. You end up having finger fatigue, play poorly and can't really be on top of your own dynamic.

Therefore I play coffee house gigs with a 2*15 setup and I play a big stage with a 2*15 set up. I do have a volume knob...in fact, several of them.
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i agree fully. I stack my 2x10s vertically so I i can always hear myself easily. Some gigs, i guess, I could get away with one cab but the two take up the same stage area as one and gives me more leeway during the gig. Halfway through the second set is not the time to discover that your speakers are inadequate!
 
#76
BassmanPaul said:
i agree fully. I stack my 2x10s vertically so I i can always hear myself easily. Some gigs, i guess, I could get away with one cab but the two take up the same stage area as one and gives me more leeway during the gig. Halfway through the second set is not the time to discover that your speakers are inadequate!
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+1 I quite often don't need the extension cab..... but then I have to carry something to put the amp on to get it higher. Since the extension cab is only 30 pounds, I might as well bring that ;) Plus then I have it if I do need it.
 
#77
seanm said:
+1 I quite often don't need the extension cab..... but then I have to carry something to put the amp on to get it higher. Since the extension cab is only 30 pounds, I might as well bring that ;) Plus then I have it if I do need it.
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I take this tact with my 15/6. I had a stage-speaker stand built for it that I refer to as a 15/sub.
 
#78
PA support, PA support, PA support, and a qualified sound technician. Ok so I'm dreaming, well not exactly. I'm blessed enough to work with such and the Aviom monitor system, using m-Audio dual driver earplugs, who needs to worry about wattage? My Hartke KB12 does the job for 1000 seat auditorium no problem all things considered. It's more about the mix than anything else. I use one ear plug and leave the other open to the air. I hear my Hartke mixed with the Aviom, it's a wonderful experience everytime.
 

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