• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

How much should a custom luthier make per hour?

#141
I think if a luthier is paid $100, (or say £85 in the UK) an hour, and that is after the deductions, then he/she is on a VERY good wage in this economy.

I have seen dentists and doctors working for a lot less. My view is, they spent a fortune on getting the education they needed over 5-7 years, and deserve a top of the bracket wage for it. The same with lawyers and teachers.

Just my view. I appreciate good art and good work, especially finishing touches, but $100 is a lot.

How long does it take to become a luthier? Eg, to get to specific level of skill? How much would it cost on average to get there?
 
#142
Bruce and Jason, BRAVO! Best post on this, ever.

I will add from the Brubaker side. Everyone is familiar with Kevin's finish work. The Extreme finishes, including the fretboard finishes, take 2-5 times longer then say a standard satin one-color finish. Like stated earlier, you have to take extreme care (meaning time) in order to get the colors, patterns and wood grains to all pop just right. Then add ing additional material costs for special bridge, nut and knob finishes, and the time waiting for those, and you start to see your cost jump. And, if your vendor has an issue or just a schedule slip, you have another set of, as Bruce calls it, non-billable time. And what none of them have said yet is often these delays mean that in order to meet the customer's time needs and your promised delivery, you wind up working what to the average person would be overtime or "time and a half" pay. Which, of course, you can't charge nor would the consumer accept.

When you look at gross receipts vs. net costs, most people on TB only look at material costs, and seem to ignore time. Then, you get threads like this, that question what a builder should charge or make. It's a shame.

Any player can buy an EMG P pickup set direct from EMG for $129. You can install it yourself at "no cost." But, if you we're to do what an old professor told me to do once, track your time then multiply it by your current hourly salary, then add it to the material. That is what it cost you. Now, doesn't the price your local shop charges to install it seem reasonable?

Bruce, Jason, Vinny, Jimmy, Mike T, Mike L, Stu, Roger, and ALL the other great builders should make millions. However, the market doesn't necessarily allow that, but clearly what the selling price is is more then justified. And, for the most part, that turns out to be below prevailing wage....
 
#144
TRichardsbass said:
Bruce and Jason, BRAVO! Best post on this, ever.

I will add from the Brubaker side. Everyone is familiar with Kevin's finish work. The Extreme finishes, including the fretboard finishes, take 2-5 times longer then say a standard satin one-color finish. Like stated earlier, you have to take extreme care (meaning time) in order to get the colors, patterns and wood grains to all pop just right. Then add ing additional material costs for special bridge, nut and knob finishes, and the time waiting for those, and you start to see your cost jump. And, if your vendor has an issue or just a schedule slip, you have another set of, as Bruce calls it, non-billable time. And what none of them have said yet is often these delays mean that in order to meet the customer's time needs and your promised delivery, you wind up working what to the average person would be overtime or "time and a half" pay. Which, of course, you can't charge nor would the consumer accept.

When you look at gross receipts vs. net costs, most people on TB only look at material costs, and seem to ignore time. Then, you get threads like this, that question what a builder should charge or make. It's a shame.

Any player can buy an EMG P pickup set direct from EMG for $129. You can install it yourself at "no cost." But, if you we're to do what an old professor told me to do once, track your time then multiply it by your current hourly salary, then add it to the material. That is what it cost you. Now, doesn't the price your local shop charges to install it seem reasonable?

Bruce, Jason, Vinny, Jimmy, Mike T, Mike L, Stu, Roger, and ALL the other great builders should make millions. However, the market doesn't necessarily allow that, but clearly what the selling price is is more then justified. And, for the most part, that turns out to be below prevailing wage....
Click to expand...

When I first read the OP, I pretty much took it as "how much should we allow them to make?" Not sure this was the intent, but nonetheless, this is how I took it. I would just like to say that I believe that these conversations, regardless of their intent, are NOT in the best interest of anyone. We live in a market driven society (at least in the U.S.) and we need to let the market decide what people make...
 
#145
Munjibunga said:
I'm going to say $100 an hour. I'm pretty sure thare aren't too many who make that but, for crying out loud, I make almost that standing in front of a classroom teaching people about orogenic belts...
Click to expand...

Where the hell do you teach and get that much money?

THAT'S the bigger question.:D

I can add up all of the money I have ever made teaching and it doesn't equal $100 ab hour...or even a year:crying:

but I do have a dream job, so I am really not complaining....
 
#146
Musicman20 said:
I think if a luthier is paid $100, (or say £85 in the UK) an hour, and that is after the deductions, then he/she is on a VERY good wage in this economy.

I have seen dentists and doctors working for a lot less. My view is, they spent a fortune on getting the education they needed over 5-7 years, and deserve a top of the bracket wage for it. The same with lawyers and teachers.

Just my view. I appreciate good art and good work, especially finishing touches, but $100 is a lot.

How long does it take to become a luthier? Eg, to get to specific level of skill? How much would it cost on average to get there?
Click to expand...

How much a doctor, dentist or lawyer paid for school is their problem- if they couldn't get some kind of scholarship or grant, it's just not a good justification for how much they charge, IMO. Their skills, OTOH, are what I want them to be known for and what I want them to charge for. If every Dr, DDS or lawyer charged, based on how much school cost and there was no other way to find out who was best, it would be a bad situation for everyone because, just like any other field, someone was bad enough to be at the bottom of their class in school. If they were able to command the same rate as the top of the class, it's because A) those at the top choose to charge less or B) the government sets the rates.

In terms of money paid to learn luthery, we would have to look at what the schools charge. In terms of time spent outside of that kind of training or not "on the job" training, there's a lot of scrap wood that was turned into something useful just so some little nuance can be tweaked- if the woodworker is able to sell some of these, good for them. There's always one kind of joint that needs improvement, to be done for the first of 1000 times, some saw or chisel technique or some shaping operation that could be better. It takes time to become well-versed on power tools but a lot of luthery is done with hand tools and that's where little things count most. There's a fine line between being done and "it only needs one more pass of the file, plane, spokeshave, or hand router". The trick is knowing when to stop.

Then, there's finishing. That alone, takes quite a bit of time to learn. It also takes a lot of time to do properly. Some finishes are "wipe it on, let it soak in, wipe it off, let it dry, pat it on the butt and kiss it goodbye". Others need sanding between every coat, final sanding and polishing.
 
#147
mdogs said:
When I first read the OP, I pretty much took it as "how much should we allow them to make?" Not sure this was the intent, but nonetheless, this is how I took it. I would just like to say that I believe that these conversations, regardless of their intent, are NOT in the best interest of anyone. We live in a market driven society (at least in the U.S.) and we need to let the market decide what people make...
Click to expand...

NO. The intent was to see what people think an appropriate equivalent hourly rate should be for the industry's finest craftsmen. Very few have been successful at answering. It's very simple. Do you think a leading luthier's work is worth $20 an hour? $40? $100? I know, better than most, about the market's influence on how much one can charge for a bass. I don't give a rat's ass about that in this thread.

The only people who have been successful in this thread (aside from Bruce and Jason and any other luthiers who responded so graciously) are the ones who popped a number up there. I don't care about your economic theories and rationalizations. What I'm trying to get at, with all the whining about overpriced instruments out there, is how much you think a luthier should make - NOT per instrument - per hour. I chose hourly rate as the parameter. So stop with the high-minded, wind-in-the-face, teary-eyed, pontificatious (my own word), bombastic, keynesian crap. I don't care about your BA in econ.

What is a premier luthier's time worth in dollars per hour?
 
#148
OK, here are the people who have responding in an appropriate way. I've given the post number, screen name, and a grade for each. This excludes the enlightening posts by the luthiers and Tom Richards who were auditing and get honorary PhDs. I'd like to congratulate majortoby for responding in the way best exemplifying the spirit of this thread. The rest of you got mostly Ds and Fs, despite your apparent erudition and philosophical bent. You answered questions that weren't asked, and that could get you held in contempt if you continue your errant ways.

#5 calebbarton B+
#14 Means2nEnd A+
#32 Brad Johnson B
#42 g4string B
#86 majortoby A++
#93 Phil Mailloux B-
 
#151
F-.

1958Bassman said:
How much a doctor, dentist or lawyer paid for school is their problem- if they couldn't get some kind of scholarship or grant, it's just not a good justification for how much they charge, IMO. Their skills, OTOH, are what I want them to be known for and what I want them to charge for. If every Dr, DDS or lawyer charged, based on how much school cost and there was no other way to find out who was best, it would be a bad situation for everyone because, just like any other field, someone was bad enough to be at the bottom of their class in school. If they were able to command the same rate as the top of the class, it's because A) those at the top choose to charge less or B) the government sets the rates.

In terms of money paid to learn luthery, we would have to look at what the schools charge. In terms of time spent outside of that kind of training or not "on the job" training, there's a lot of scrap wood that was turned into something useful just so some little nuance can be tweaked- if the woodworker is able to sell some of these, good for them. There's always one kind of joint that needs improvement, to be done for the first of 1000 times, some saw or chisel technique or some shaping operation that could be better. It takes time to become well-versed on power tools but a lot of luthery is done with hand tools and that's where little things count most. There's a fine line between being done and "it only needs one more pass of the file, plane, spokeshave, or hand router". The trick is knowing when to stop.

Then, there's finishing. That alone, takes quite a bit of time to learn. It also takes a lot of time to do properly. Some finishes are "wipe it on, let it soak in, wipe it off, let it dry, pat it on the butt and kiss it goodbye". Others need sanding between every coat, final sanding and polishing.
Click to expand...
 
#152
Munjibunga said:
F-.
Click to expand...

Show your work.

I don't read minds and just asking for a dollar amount without specifying the criteria that would be the basis for the hourly rate is too ambiguous. The craftsman has to have a rationale for their rate.

F- to you, too. If you don't work wood or build things, don't give me a bad grade for responding to someone else, with examples of what may be involved.
 
#153
1958Bassman said:
Show your work.

I don't read minds and just asking for a dollar amount without specifying the criteria that would be the basis for the hourly rate is too ambiguous. The craftsman has to have a rationale for their rate.

F- to you, too. If you don't work wood or build things, don't give me a bad grade for responding to someone else, with examples of what may be involved.
Click to expand...

'Bout says it all...
 
#156
1958Bassman said:
Show your work.

I don't read minds and just asking for a dollar amount without specifying the criteria that would be the basis for the hourly rate is too ambiguous. The craftsman has to have a rationale for their rate.

F- to you, too. If you don't work wood or build things, don't give me a bad grade for responding to someone else, with examples of what may be involved.
Click to expand...

See posts #1 and #147. Bruce and Jason covered pretty much everything one would need to know. You clearly don't get the intent of the thread. If you are a custom luthier, please accept my apology. You would then be excluded from getting a grade.
 
#159
Munjibunga said:
I give up.
Click to expand...

Re-reading the OP, if you are considering "master quality" I agree. In terms of master quality craftsman, $100 is more than reasonble. Even $200 or $300 wouldn't be out of the question depending on a lot of factors. For instance, if people will fly from Chicago to Italy to sit face to face with the person and then have to get on a 3 year waiting list. In that case, a couple hundred an hour could almost be expected.
 
#160
mdogs said:
When I first read the OP, I pretty much took it as "how much should we allow them to make?" Not sure this was the intent, but nonetheless, this is how I took it. I would just like to say that I believe that these conversations, regardless of their intent, are NOT in the best interest of anyone. We live in a market driven society (at least in the U.S.) and we need to let the market decide what people make...
Click to expand...

I think they very much in everyone's interest. The market is dependent on information, and maybe if people knew more about the realities of producing custom artisanal items they would be better disposed to pay more for them. In fact most people know absolutely nothing about how anything we consume is produced, and why we pay so little for mass produced items.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back