How much should a custom luthier make per hour?

[GlennW]

Craftsmanship and machine-made should never be confused because craftsmanship involves intent to make something to a degree of quality.

And machine-made doesn't involve intent to make something to a degree of quality?
I fail to see the logic in that statement. The whole idea of a machine is to get "a degree of quality", but with more accuracy and speed.

I suppose you'd have a nicer lawn if grass craftsmen cut each individual blade with a pair of scissors rather than using a mower.

Like it or not, craftsmanship is next to dead. Very few consumers want to pay for it, and they rarely get it even if they do.

See how many block planes are used while trimming 1M+ houses...about the same as on apartments.

How do these high-end craftsmen make the channel for the truss rod? With hand tools, or an electric router (machine)?

 

[1958Bassman]

And machine-made doesn't involve intent to make something to a degree of quality?
I fail to see the logic in that statement. The whole idea of a machine is to get "a degree of quality", but with more accuracy and speed.

I suppose you'd have a nicer lawn if grass craftsmen cut each individual blade with a pair of scissors rather than using a mower.

Like it or not, craftsmanship is next to dead. Very few consumers want to pay for it, and they won't get it even if they do.

See how many block planes are used while trimming 1M+ houses...about the same as on apartments. You aren't saying which end of the spectrum you're referring to- seldom, or often.

How do these high-end craftsmen make the channel for the truss rod? With hand tools, or an electric router (machine)?

I meant, from the standpoint of the user of the tools. I agree that quality is the intent behind CNC and other machine tools but it takes a back seat to repeatability. However, a craftsman can make changes on the fly if needed and the setup of a machine has to be changed, slowing production. OTOH, people can also make mistakes on the fly.

I see a lot of block planes used when $1M+ homes are built and have used them, myself.

Re: truss rod channels, either works- the machine is definitely faster and, as long as the setup is done right, more accurate.

I wonder if the people who are said to have invented the circular saw ever imagined that this would be discussed at such length, back in the 17th or 18th century.

As far as craftsmanship being dead, tell that to anyone who is involved in it and see what kind of reaction you get. Do you honestly think there's no custom fitting in the construction of ANYTHING? Even a little cracker-box house needs it. It's not considered to be "craftsmanship" because of the price of the house, but it's there. Making bad materials look good isn't easy. Anyone can slap together an instrument from pre-made parts but it won't necessarily play well or work as desired. A great setup requires a lot of skill and that's part of craftsmanship- it doesn't happen by accident.

 

[notverygood]

I have heard that argument before, and don't buy it.

When i was a teen, I remember having real conversations about important things. I remember the seniors at my highschool (when I was a freshman) reading wall street journal. This was the early 80s.

Sorry, but I have kids...their friends come over. I listen to what they talk about. They are morons.

Watch the movie "kids" "13" or "bully"....those are pretty much accurate. I doubt those kids will ever have the expertise to build something important. Hope I am wrong.

What a load of BS. Bullying was just invented, huh? I have kids too. They're not morons. I'm sorry yours are, but I'm amazed that you won't take responsibility for that. Whose fault do you think that is?

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I'm sorry yours are, but I'm amazed that you won't take responsibility for that. Whose fault do you think that is?

Some times it's really not the parents fault.


Kids really do have minds of their own.

 

[awilkie84]

What a load of BS. Bullying was just invented, huh? I have kids too. They're not morons. I'm sorry yours are, but I'm amazed that you won't take responsibility for that. Whose fault do you think that is?

It's not completely on the parents. Society's made a real shift through media & education cuts that have pushed & coerced us all into a stagnant existence with very little intellectual development.

 

[aborgman]

OK, let's look at another angle of the price of bass guitars. After all the bills have been paid - rent, insurance, materials, etc., how much should be left for the luthier's labor, per hour?

As much as customers are willing to pay.

 

[aborgman]

How can you figure out what the correct price is for your instrument if you don't know how much labor you have in it?

Easy - you sell it on the open market.

 

[notverygood]

It's not completely on the parents. Society's made a real shift through media & education cuts that have pushed & coerced us all into a stagnant existence with very little intellectual development.

But who was running society? The kids? They decided that education wasn't important?

 

[Zentner]

This thread has gotten to be absolutely ridiculous and so far past the original point to be made.

Lovely de-rail folks.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Wow, there's a lot of circular arguing going on here!

Let me restate the two main points from my post a few pages back, and try to get this thread back on the subject:

1.) I should charge $100/hour. By any rational calculation of my business costs, that's what it would take to cover my overhead and non-billable hours, and leave me taking home a modest income. And most of you would agree that's a reasonable rate, comparing my skills, experience, and shop equipment to other skilled trades.

But:

2.) I can't charge $100/hour. Basses are bought on a fixed price, which is determined by the market. That is, the customers will decide to buy or not buy based on what they think is the value of my bass. And if I take that market valuation price that customers are willing to pay for my bass, and work the numbers backwards, it comes out to $45/hour. That's what customers are actually willing to pay me.

The conflict between those two things is the problem. That's why I build my basses and take home hardly any real pay for my labor.

The four main ways to resolve this are:

1.) Find some way to significantly reduce my overhead, such as a shop with no rent.

2.) Dramatically improve my efficiency by increasing my Billable Hours and reducing wasted time.

3.) Dramatically reduce the labor hours needed to build my basses, without reducing the quality or features.

4.) Significantly increase the selling prices of my basses, and find some way to convince my customers that they are worth it, so that they are willing to pay that much.

You can see how those things are conflicting, particularly 3.) and 4.). It would take major changes of any or all of them to bridge that gap between $45/hr and $100/hr.

 

[GlennW]

5.) Hire some help.

There's the crux of the problem. As long as one guy is doing all the work his income is limited to selling what he can produce.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Well, I'm glad you're not too strict on number 2 and don't mind wasting some time on TB because I like your insight/views on the subject.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

5.) Hire some help.

There's the crux of the problem. As long as one guy is doing all the work his income is limited to selling what he can produce.

But to bring on the second guy that incurs a lot of additional overhead. You almost need to be working 100 hours/weeks to make it to the point where the new guy is going to be an asset and he had better know everything coming in so there is no wasted time with training, etc.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

5.) Hire some help.

There's the crux of the problem. As long as one guy is doing all the work his income is limited to selling what he can produce.

Glenn, I disagree. That actually makes things worse. With employees, my fixed overhead costs go up, my efficiency goes down, the labor hours per instrument probably goes up, and the risk factor goes way up.

As I tried to explain in my post about Fodera, with employees, I would be forced to charge $100/hour. I would have to charge $6300 for my basses, and have to produce and sell more per month. That would make my life much harder.

The only reason I'm surviving as I am is because I don't have any employees.

The argument about getting help would apply here IF the market was willing to buy my instruments at prices that work out to $100/hr AND I wasn't able to build basses fast enough by myself to keep up with the demand. But that's not the case here.

 

[FunkMetalBass]

I remember seeing something about an 80-hour average (of active work) per luthier per instrument. if that's the case, and you're Fodera or Ritter, $100 is probably an accurate estimate (I also adjusted for the estimated supply cost, don't worry).

Now, how much SHOULD they get paid? That's entirely dependent upon the quality of work. I'd venture a guess that between $20 and $150 for any luthier whose instruments are actually playable.

 

[pbasswil]

It's the word "should" that's a problem. Should implies some authoritative standard that judges and regulates luthery.

Since that doesn't exist, anyone who says "it should be $XX/hour" is judging the labor of a luthier from their personal perspective, and by their own criteria.

But luthiers are bobbing around in the free-market sea, trying to stay afloat like everyone else. The ones that find a way to survive are the ones that have found a balance between prices charged, and the demand for their services that they've managed to rustle up.

Many, many variables. The free market decides what prices are sustainable. This varies from place to place -- and with the quality of the work, and with how pleasant the guy is to do business with.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

It's the word "should" that's a problem. Should implies some authoritative standard that judges and regulates luthery.

Since that doesn't exist, anyone who says "it should be $XX/hour" is judging the labor of a luthier from their personal perspective, and by their own criteria.

But luthiers are bobbing around in the free-market sea, trying to stay afloat like everyone else. The ones that find a way to survive are the ones that have found a balance between prices charged, and the demand for their services that they've managed to rustle up.

Many, many variables. The free market decides what prices are sustainable. This varies from place to place -- and with the quality of the work, and with how pleasant the guy is to do business with.

Yeah, I agree completely.

The question really is:

How much do Luthiers need to charge to cover their costs and take home some modest pay?

The answer is found in record keeping and math, not in some value judgement.

The other question is:

How much is a particular customer willing to pay for a particular bass?

Now that is a value judgement, literally, based on perceived quality, features, design, trust in the Luthier, etc. The answer is a fixed number as the customer hands over the cash.

 

[1958Bassman]

5.) Hire some help.

There's the crux of the problem. As long as one guy is doing all the work his income is limited to selling what he can produce.

But that's another expense and there has been quite a bit of input about how much that costs. An additional expense won't make charging less work.

 

[1958Bassman]

As I tried to explain in my post about Fodera, with employees, I would be forced to charge $100/hour. I would have to charge $6300 for my basses, and have to produce and sell more per month. That would make my life much harder.

The only reason I'm surviving as I am is because I don't have any employees.

The argument about getting help would apply here IF the market was willing to buy my instruments at prices that work out to $100/hr AND I wasn't able to build basses fast enough by myself to keep up with the demand. But that's not the case here.

That's the position I'm in and it's a double-edged sword- if business increases so much that an employee is needed, the time and money it costs causes the old pricing structure stop being adequate, yet if the company is a one-person business, they can be required to spend so much time and effort that quality may suffer and/or the person completely burns out.

 

[svtb15]

Well how much should a lawyer get per hour? Since they are such a pain in the rear end i say tops $50.... my lawyer was getting $600 an hour for doing piddly stuff.... ridiculousness..

My Quote "Its not what you are worth. Its what you negotiate.." plain and simple...

Are you gonna put a cap on Stradivarius creations if he were alive? Of course not..