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How much should a custom luthier make per hour?

Sorry, but this is another example of a REALLY dangerous way to think about this. The mass market IN NO WAY 'sets the price' for high end goods. Zero validity to this.

I don't have the time or patience right now to write a long response, but I have to say that I completely disagree with you on that statement.

Any market with high end products gets significantly affected when undercut by cheap imitators. It's true that the very top high end companies, with the best built reputations, are affected the least. The second tier companies are affected the most. That's what the subject of product valuation is all about.

When that customer is standing there, with $5000 in his pocket, looking at that gorgeous Fodera, he already knows that he likes it and can afford it. The big question in his mind is: Is it worth it? Should I pay that much? Is it overpriced? That's how buyers of high-end items think. They aren't crazy playboys throwing cash around. They are willing to buy something expensive......but only if it's worth it.

So how do they determine what "worth it" is?

Well, I've got to get some sleep and get back to grinding out top-grade undervalued basses....:D More later...
 
I don't have the time or patience right now to write a long response, but I have to say that I completely disagree with you on that statement.

Any market with high end products gets significantly affected when undercut by cheap imitators. It's true that the very top high end companies, with the best built reputations, are affected the least. The second tier companies are affected the most. That's what the subject of product valuation is all about.

When that customer is standing there, with $5000 in his pocket, looking at that gorgeous Fodera, he already knows that he likes it and can afford it. The big question in his mind is: Is it worth it? Should I pay that much? Is it overpriced? That's how buyers of high-end items think. They aren't crazy playboys throwing cash around. They are willing to buy something expensive......but only if it's worth it.

So how do they determine what "worth it" is?

Well, I've got to get some sleep and get back to grinding out top-grade undervalued basses....:D More later...

IMO, we just said the same thing, so +1. Any product 'in the middle' of the true high end and mass market has a tough row to hoe unless they REALLY have something unique to sell, or have done a REALLY good job with branding (i.e., the art of creating a 'product worth' from brand reputation.... product placement with top line players, distribution in high end bass shops, interesting 'back story' of the luthier, etc.). Hard to do in a crowded market. A few 'younger' luthiers have done this very well... .Jimmy Coppolo comes to mind. The whole vibe of his personality, product, company, location, etc. seem to come together very nicely to create a nice niche for him in a very small, competitive category, and to justify a price high enough and demand strong enough to make a decent living.
 
I've been involved with launching a few different high end products and services, and have counselled a few friends with their startups in similar market segments.

Invariably they undervalue their products and lack the conviction and confidence to price them properly. Artisans tend to be the worst when it comes to underestimating their costs, and not understanding the psychology behind asking suitably high prices for their services or product.

Proper pricing structure is a big part placing your product properly in regards to market segments- I think too many luthiers are possibly underselling themselves, or not properly differentiating their product from the mass market, against which they have no business competing against if they want to succeed.
 
I've been involved with launching a few different high end products and services, and have counselled a few friends with their startups in similar market segments.

Invariably they undervalue their products and lack the conviction and confidence to price them properly. Artisans tend to be the worst when it comes to underestimating their costs, and not understanding the psychology behind asking suitably high prices for their services or product.

Proper pricing structure is a big part placing your product properly in regards to market segments- I think too many luthiers are possibly underselling themselves, or not properly differentiating their product from the mass market, against which they have no business competing against if they want to succeed.

Agreed. Seen it a few times myself. Builder thinks people won't pay "x" for their product because the dollar amount may not seem "affordable". Without fail I've told them that if the products are good enough, people tend to find ways to afford them. I've even had bassists question me on why I'd suggest someone raise the price of a product I like. The answer is actually pretty simple:

I'd like to see them to continue doing what they do. If they do it at a loss, sooner or later that'll become obvious. Unlike some, I do care if these businesses succeed which is why I try to help. Even though I have no financial stake.
:cool:
 
You said it. My competition. Which is El Cheapo. Even though theoretically it would appear it isn't, it is.

Then the claim that you have failed to sufficiently differentiate yourself is a tautology.

No you have no obligation to anyone but yourself. True enough. However you also reinforce my point. The mass market does drive even the niche.

...and the niche drives the mass market.

All aspects of a market have an effect on others.

Here is how. You said if I can't differentiate sufficiently the value of the Tom Richards Amazing Custom Bassanova, my bass vs. el cheapo then essentially it's my problem. The thing you miss is that for the most part most of us actually have. However the mindset is exactly like yours. You want yours, all of it, at YOUR price. If I am charging a fair price,

There is no such thing as a "fair" price. The very concept is silly.

Nothing has any inherent value. Value is completely subjective.

but you don't like it, the quick response is that something less expensive is as good.

No - I may claim the VALUE isn't as good - but I'm not going to say I prefer one instrument over another because I can't afford one.

Of course - the quick response from you is that it ISN'T as good, and the only reason someone would say it is as good is the cost.

Remember - we're talking about TASTE here. The guy who prefers Miller Lite to Cristal doesn't necessarily do so because he can't afford the Cristal.

The fact that you seem to reject the possibility that someone may just plain prefer and think the lower priced, non-custom, bass is better is telling.

And your barometer is the lowest common denominator. I don't know any TBer who ever started a thread titled, "compared to custom builder 1 custom builder 2 is a good deal." But there are tons comparing price point basses to top of the line customs.

Yes... and your point is? Customs should somehow be exempt from value comparisons with mass market goods? Customs are somehow inherently better just because they're custom?

Then you go on the Internet and tell everyone how much I suck and then start threads like "Mr. Cheapo bass IS AS GOOD AS A Tom Richards Bassanova?" I could care less if you buy something different, but I have to care if you do something that tarnishes my ability to make that living. So I have two responses. Either work my price lower to meet your desire, or lose a sale. Lose enough sales, and of course I am looking for a 9-5. Lower my price and I eat but still take the bus.

Yes - if your businesses is untenable and you can't compete... you go out of business. This is no different than the local sandwich shop or widget manufacturer.

If you can't convince the buying public your wares are worth enough more than mass market goods - they AREN'T worth more than mass market goods.

If my sandwich shop can't outcompete McDonalds - out of business I go. Doesn't matter how much better quality I think my sandwiches are, all that matters is how much the public is willing to vote with their dollars.

Which is exactly the point of the OP. It wasn't about if Tom Richards is a good businessman, it's what should a good builder make per hour.

A good builder should make whatever his customers are willing to pay - and if that number is not enough to survive, he has chosen an untenable business. Choosing an untenable business means he is not a good businessman.



McDonalds sells a double cheeseburger for a buck. A local pub makes a double cheese that is light years better. Because his beef costs more then McDonalds, he had to raise his price from $4 to $5. $5 is still a great price for a local pub burger. Within a month his price was back to $4. Not because his costs went back to lower, but because he has to compete with the mass market even though he is NOT a fast food chain. Its not his niche at all. I actually listened to two customers tell them that they could buy 5 burgers at McDonalds for that price, and that $4 was okay, but $5 was just too much.

Then the burger is only worth $4 to those customers, and 5 McDonalds burgers are worth more than one pub burger.

... and they aren't wrong.


Why do you think Mercedes came out with the Smart Car and dropped the Maibach? The Maibach was absolutely worth it's price. But the mass market effects the high end market.

If you can't sell it at a price, it isn't worth that price - no matter how much money went into it.

Mercedes came out with the Smart Car because the buying public attaches a worth to it that exceeds the cost to Mercedes to build it.

Mercedes dropped the Maibach because it absolutely wasn't worth the price to the only people whose subjective valuation matters - the customer.

Same for bass. Everyone keeps one eye on the cheapo and when you don't like even a fair price, you will pull it out and clobber us with it. So it DOES effect even the Ritters, Brubakers, Backlunds, Spectors and all of the US custom builders.

There is no such thing as a "fair" price. There is no inherent value.

I am not saying that you should pay for me to live a great lifestyle. What I am saying is that if you really look at what you get from a custom builder, it really is a good value, if not inexpensive.

That is a completely subjective personal opinion based on taste.

Of the custom instruments I've played - some were so amazing that I personally would place their value way above most mass produced instruments I've played... and others (with hundreds of hours of work, expensive woods, etc, etc.) had values I'd put below $200 Squiers.



Next time I reboot my company I will hire you to write my plan and get me my lines of credit. You do at least understand the financials.


First thing I'll ask before we ever even discuss business plans -

Does the math work? Is there enough demand for the product at a price that will produce a profit for the company?

If you can't, with evidence, answer that question in the affirmative - the business is untenable from the get go, and there is no reason at all to advance to planning. Quit while you're ahead.
 
Thank you for the dissertation.

However, perceived value is more on trend and reputation. I do not know of too many "luxury" items from companies that are less then 25 years old. Most of those "luxury" items, at least those I consider luxury, are from companies with names and brick and mortar that is over 100 years old. Cartier, Rolex, Mercedes, Tiffany, et cetera. And most of them started as mere market companies, who gradually over time became "luxury." And, because you did not have to compete on a massive global scale, were never subject to the ridiculous disparity of labor and material pricing we have today. I venture to say that had Rockafeller had to compete with Saudi Arabia in oil instead of being one of the wealthiest ever he would already be a footnote in history.

I love the Tesla. Great car for what it is. How come they don't sell very many? Its owner is rich from something else. That is why the company even exists. That is also the dirty little secret, most luxury companies are toys of people who make their money elsewhere. The NY Yankees come to mind. People forget that for two decades the Yankees were money loosers, and George Steinbrenner made all is money is shipping. Yet the Yankees were and are a percieved, "luxury" team.

I compare my custom and boutique basses with the local craftsman. The cabinets in my home were built by the best cabinet guy in my area of the state. He charged me a fair price. Higher then Home Depot, but not that much more. They are works of art, to me, and they will definitely survive for at least 100 years. Was his price what even I think it should have been? No, it was lower. Why? Not because Home Depot and Chinese made cabinets are that good. Because VERY FEW HUMANS today value work and craftsmanship, nor do they see things as lasting. And if he wants to eat, his price has to be competitive with the least common denominator. Even though his business is NOT in that NICHE, or what you would probably define him by the text books to be.

Our society, and every industry, is effected by the "its disposable" mindset. period. Maybe that is a better way to put it. Not "mass market" but "disposable." If I don't like my cabinets, at some point I'll just keep upgrading and throw the old ones away. Even though in actuality the total cost with inflation of buying crap, replacing later with better crap, and then again with even better crap, but still crap, was more then just buying the "luxury" great cabinet from the get go.

The infamous MBA mush is to blame for sure. Short term finance thought, can't even understand long term. Managing by the numbers is important, but at some point will ALWAYS get you in trouble. Look at Bain and GC. Perfect example. Bain and GC look at instruments as just any other commodity. Buy low, sell for a margin, and dump if you don't get the expected short term gain. Now, my friends at companies like Rudy's, NJ Guitar and Bass Center, Matt Umanov, Bass Specialties, Bass Northwest, all have been in business and stay in business because they manage the numbers, but treat the instruments as what they are. Part product, part emotion, part investment, part art. Yes, they don't eat as well now then they did, say 5 years ago, but they don't have the issues GC does.

Either way, I'm so way off this thread it is absolutely over for me. Honestly, believe it or not, most musical instrument companies understand finance and numbers. However, being in the biz myself, I understand the factors that effect the business well. Many of them have stunned the living crap out of me. Things that you would not even come close to having in a business plan, and things that you would never consider as needing risk mitigations and risk management. (See, I know about that too). And it wasn't anything to do with numbers either.
 
However, perceived value is more on trend and reputation.

Perceived value is the value. There is no value other than the value a customer is willing to pay for a product.



I love the Tesla. Great car for what it is. How come they don't sell very many?

Because it isn't a great car, its' super expensive (~115,000), the last two years models don't meet US road safety requirements for airbags, several of them have "bricked" (in the cell phone sense), has about a 60 mile range under heavy use, and performs significantly worse than a number of other sports cars that sell in the same price range.



I compare my custom and boutique basses with the local craftsman. The cabinets in my home were built by the best cabinet guy in my area of the state. He charged me a fair price. Higher then Home Depot, but not that much more. They are works of art, to me, and they will definitely survive for at least 100 years. Was his price what even I think it should have been? No, it was lower. Why? Not because Home Depot and Chinese made cabinets are that good. Because VERY FEW HUMANS today value work and craftsmanship, nor do they see things as lasting.

...and that is their choice, and their choice isn't wrong. Value is subjective, not inherent.


And if he wants to eat, his price has to be competitive with the least common denominator.

No, his price needs to be less than the value customers perceive in his product. Either he needs to convince the customer that his value TO THEM exceeds the value of the cheap cabinets, or he needs to admit that (despite his costs) the value of his cabinets TO THE CUSTOMER do not rise above the cheap cabinets.




Our society, and every industry, is effected by the "its disposable" mindset. period. Maybe that is a better way to put it. Not "mass market" but "disposable." If I don't like my cabinets, at some point I'll just keep upgrading and throw the old ones away. Even though in actuality the total cost with inflation of buying crap, replacing later with better crap, and then again with even better crap, but still crap, was more then just buying the "luxury" great cabinet from the get go.

Yes, people aren't necessarily long term rational actors with respect to finance... and it's nothing new or tied to the current disposable market.

That phrase "penny wise, pound foolish" isn't exactly brand new.



Honestly, believe it or not, most musical instrument companies understand finance and numbers. However, being in the biz myself, I understand the factors that effect the business well. Many of them have stunned the living crap out of me. Things that you would not even come close to having in a business plan, and things that you would never consider as needing risk mitigations and risk management. (See, I know about that too). And it wasn't anything to do with numbers either.

Sorry, but I doubt the musical instrument business is significantly different in that respect from any other business - and if it's happened to others in the industry previously, you'd better be planning risk mitigation for it into your business plan.
 
I'm a pro Luthier/Builder. Most of you would consider me successful at it. I've been doing it nearly full time for 21 years, I have a good reputation, and I usually have a waiting list for my basses and services. But let me enlighten you with the ugly financial reality of this business. The net income numbers some of you are tossing around are pure fantasy. Most of us Luthiers make a net hourly pay less than minimum wage. When I visit my tax accountant every year, he shakes his head and tells me to shut it down and go get a real job. I'm not kidding.

First things first: I've set a basic rate of $45 per hour. This is not my "pay", it's what's called an Hourly Composite Rate for the business. I need to make an average of about $30 per hour for 40 hours per week, just to pay the overhead (rent on my building, utilities, insurance, etc.). Those are fixed costs that have to be paid each month. So, if I charge $45 per hour, and complete 40 hours of Billable Work (see below) in a week, my actual pay is really only $15 per hour. That's $600 per week, which is less than most people with real jobs make.

No offense intended, but could you possibly run your business out of the garage in your home (or in a bare-bones type of shed that you built by your home)?

Obviously you have considered all options with your accountant.

I guess I mention this because the rent on the building is doubtless a very significant cost, and it would be nice if you could dispense with that. I know a luthier who, like you, is doing "well" (quotes are there only because of what you have articulated in this post :-) ), and he works out of the garage in his home.

All the best.
.
 
Late to jump in, but by definition luthiers are doing "piece" work. Therefore, they have to decide how much effort a piece is worth. And how much the person buying it will pay.

I believe that especially in the coming desktop-manufacturing economy, a luthier's value will be in willing to do the work at all, and hoping that a machine can't do it better, and selling people on that notion that hand-sanding down the body and hand-fitting the parts together makes a better product. Which, in the long run, I believe it will.

In my misty visions of the future, I see artisans and the whole field of making things by hand coming back in a big way, kind of like vintage instruments and vinyl records are valued now. But the luthier will have to find a way to make what he's doing noticeably different than what can be done with a robot.
 
Anyone who isn't in the business of, or has intimate experience with, employing top-tier luthiers will be answering your question philosophically.

pretty much. I owned and operated a small jewelry business with employees and payroll taxes and etc etc. Before that experience I had no appreciation for what it took to get goods to the marketplace. So unless you've been there and done that, you pulling it from the ether.

Also I agree with one poster who said " as much as possible" I agree 1000 % because you never get paid back what you put into that kind of business, you do it because you like the smell of sawdust and the result.
 
No offense intended, but could you possibly run your business out of the garage in your home (or in a bare-bones type of shed that you built by your home)?

Obviously you have considered all options with your accountant.

I guess I mention this because the rent on the building is doubtless a very significant cost, and it would be nice if you could dispense with that. I know a luthier who, like you, is doing "well" (quotes are there only because of what you have articulated in this post :-) ), and he works out of the garage in his home.

All the best.
.

Yes, quite a few small high-end Luthiers work out of home shop garages for exactly that reason, to minimize the overhead. And many of them have wives with full time jobs too!

My own case is the opposite: I don't have a home, a wife, kids, or any of those silly distractions! I lease an industrial building and I live in a little apartment in the front of it. I work day and night, and this is really the only life I have.

Also, I have a lot more heavy machinery than most Luthiers, including many tons of metalworking machines. Having them allows me to make my own metal hardware and special tooling. And part of my business is subcontract work for other Luthiers, making parts for them.

I'm actually getting ready to move my whole operation to a new location where the rent will be about 60% of what I'm paying now. A nicer place too, about the same size; 2500sf. All in the name of keeping the overhead low. Rent is my biggest single expense.
 
OK, here are the people who have responding in an appropriate way. I've given the post number, screen name, and a grade for each. This excludes the enlightening posts by the luthiers and Tom Richards who were auditing and get honorary PhDs. I'd like to congratulate majortoby for responding in the way best exemplifying the spirit of this thread. The rest of you got mostly Ds and Fs, despite your apparent erudition and philosophical bent. You answered questions that weren't asked, and that could get you held in contempt if you continue your errant ways.

#5 calebbarton B+
#14 Means2nEnd A+
#32 Brad Johnson B
#42 g4string B
#86 majortoby A++
#93 Phil Mailloux B-

It's taking me a while to get through this thread ... a couple of hours and I'm only on page 8 of 13 pages. So I'm thinking, if you're going to point out 6 of the finer posts in this thread, recommending that we go back and look at them, please consider that the number of posts in this thread that you've graded as "A" or "B" is really small compared to the number of posts that you'd grade as "F". I'd like to re-read those posts that you graded highly, but now I'm on a hunt for needles in the haystack. It would be a lot easier to find them if you could have provided direct links to the posts. Just a suggestion.
 

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