How much should a custom luthier make per hour?

[GlennW]

But that's another expense and there has been quite a bit of input about how much that costs. An additional expense won't make charging less work.

Who said anything about charging less?

Charge the same, and have the helper do things that don't require the expertise of a top notch craftsman. The craftsman has less time in the product, so his hourly income rises (unless he overpays the helper).

 

[TRichardsbass]

The lawyer point is sort of right, but there is a lot of legal collusion. I need to retain a lawyer for a personal matter, so I had a "free consultation" with 7 lawyers. What are the chances that every one of them would charge $320 per hour and $160 per hour for the paralegal?

Every single one, yes all of them had the exact same rate structure.

If all of us in the bass building world did that, we'll then all of us would be paid well. Unfortunately for us there is global competition.

Darn, my mom was right, I should have been a lawyer...

 

[1958Bassman]

Darn, my mom was right, I should have been a lawyer...

I think it may have been Will Rogers who said "Please don't tell my mother I'm a lawyer- she thinks I play piano in a whorehouse".

 

[GlennW]

So what should a good whore make per hour?

 

[chadds]

So what should a good whore make per hour?

I resemble that remark!

 

[svtb15]

Well $20 at the Lincoln Tunnel in NYC when its 5 am.. Or if you are in Monte Carlo, Monaco 3k +.... Not that i would know first hand.. Really I dont.:scowl:
But when i was in Monaco last year these chicks were hitting on teh band.. We joked that if we wanted to , we would have to pool our money. she was $4000.. I think that was dollars and not euros... And they were getting it... Monaco is the play land for those Billionaires.

So what should a good whore make per hour?

 

[roadkill2309]

I can see where it would be tough to balance the luthier's need to make a living with the consumer's desire to not pay through the nose.

Some if this stuff is wildcards, in that certain benefits are more conceptual than concrete. Some guys like that their basses were made in NYC, or that they we're lovingly hand-carved by old-world artists. I personally put absolutely zero value on either of those, especially as they both tend to up the price with no real sound, feel or aesthetic benefit -- though I can see the poetry inherent in both.

I can see where getting a CNC setup installed might be cost-prohibitive for some, though. And let's face it, some guys love building everything from scratch. Hard to find fault with that. It's bringing a note of artistry to bass building. But honestly? As I said on the bash fest over the $8500 Fodera, I'd say that an hourly wage of $60 or even $75, plus initial shaping and routing by CNC makes more sense to me as a consumer.

This is why I never try to price a possible new bass purchase through the lens of 'is this worth it?' Of course it never is; that's not the point of buying a bass you can actually discuss before it gets built. It's about being excited by your new axe.

 

[aborgman]

Thanks, Bruce and Jason, for laying it out. As one who has run both small and large businesses, I know the challenges of both. A lot of people here with no business experience like to ring the "not worth it" bell because they don't understand the hidden costs. In my company, just the benefits and taxes we pay on each employee is about .6 of the wage, so someone with a nominal salary of $20 an hour is actually making $32 an hour. Just health insurance alone runs over $5,000 per employee per year.

You keep conflating "cost" and "worth".

Why custom basses cost so much is easily understandable from the business models.

Whether they're worth that cost is a completely separate, subjective, value judgement.

 

[aborgman]

This is, of course, totally dependent upon my ability to produce a desirable product at a cost that the market will pay. I do not deserve to succeed simply for having undertaken the endeavor.

Bingo.

 

[aborgman]

I have a problem with people deciding that craftsmanship is worth a certain amount, even though they don't know everything required to do the job and may never buy anything that was custom-made- your other points are accurate, though.

Worth is purely subjective and personal.

 

[aborgman]

The four main ways to resolve this are:

1.) Find some way to significantly reduce my overhead, such as a shop with no rent.

2.) Dramatically improve my efficiency by increasing my Billable Hours and reducing wasted time.

3.) Dramatically reduce the labor hours needed to build my basses, without reducing the quality or features.

4.) Significantly increase the selling prices of my basses, and find some way to convince my customers that they are worth it, so that they are willing to pay that much.

You left out the option of changing to a different business.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

You left out the option of changing to a different business.

You're really dragging this in circles now. Bruce CLEARLY stated why he chose to do what he does.

I would though like to defend some of the earlier posts munji gave failing grades to saying that had the thread not gone the direction it did or gone as long as it did Bruce might not have put up that first post of his which is one of the best in recent memory.

unsubscribed

 

[TRichardsbass]

Builders struggle everyday with ways to keep the cost to the dealer/customer as low as humanly possible. The investment in a CNC is about $100K to start. And that doesn't include the ability to program the freakin' thing or make changes to the computer models you need.

CNC machines give you the opportunity to get near net shape, and it is sort of Ron Popeil, so if you can find someone to do it for you, yes, you are more efficient. However, it still requires hand labor after being CNC'd. Some of the "bigger" small guys do this. That is why the darn things only cost you $3500 for the basic model.

Bruce is a very special builder, keeping the Ampeg Scroll bass mystique alive and well. Which to me is worth more then gold. Dennis Kager, the inventor and builder for Ampeg of the Scroll basses, will not be with us forever. I am lucky he works close by so I can see him in the shop often. Bruce is the legacy. I hope Bruce can make enough to keep doing this until he's 100.

I'm gonna bow out of this thread now. Time will tell how much I'll get paid in the future. Right now, I'd settle for someone buying me lunch.

tom

 

[aborgman]

The investment in a CNC is about $100K to start.

Lordy, talk about exaggeration...

You can get a 30"x20"x20" bed Haas vertical (brand new) for about HALF that cost.

You can get used vertical machining centers of similar size for prices in the $20,000 range.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Yes, you can buy a basic one for that. Then you have to ship it. Then you have to set it up. Then you have to purchase additional software to properly interface with it. Then you have to insure it. The list goes on.

Investment is not just the cost of the item. I also don't know too many luthiers who have $50k just sitting there, do obviously it has to be financed.

You live in MI, so I am guessing you have bought a car. Finance a car. How much would you pay in the end for a $24k car? How about a house? My actual mortgage obligation is about $800 per month. So why then do I pay $1700 a month to them?

My point, no matter what you feel about the numbers, is that buying a piece of equipment doesn't make your costs nothing to start, and requires a significant up front investment. But then again, you are apparently an expert. Can I see a bass you have made? How much does it cost?

 

[KJung]

You keep conflating "cost" and "worth".

Why custom basses cost so much is easily understandable from the business models.

Whether they're worth that cost is a completely separate, subjective, value judgement.

Wow, this is all still going on.

+1 to this post. Exactly. Also, +1 to another of your posts about how to set your price. The open market is ALWAYS the way to set the price of a product. If you don't make a profit or a decent living because your costs are too high versus the price set by the market (worth), then you have a hobby, not a business

This is why most businesses fail... people going into business with no business training, nor undertstanding the ugly, unforgiving logic of the market.

 

[roadkill2309]

I also don't know too many luthiers who have $50k just sitting there, do obviously it has to be financed.

Dude, if I have $50k laying around, I'm getting a Dumble bass amp!

 

[roadkill2309]

My point, no matter what you feel about the numbers, is that buying a piece of equipment doesn't make your costs nothing to start, and requires a significant up front investment. But then again, you are apparently an expert. Can I see a bass you have made? How much does it cost?

Even though I'm an adherent to the Church of CNC, I can also see where making basses that way would *really* reduce the custom options in terms of body shape and neck contour. That can be a big factor got done customers *and* builders.

 

[aborgman]

Yes, you can buy a basic one for that.

No, you can buy a full Haas vertical milling station for $50k. Software, hardware, everything.

Then you have to ship it.

Yep - couple thousand bucks.

Then you have to set it up.

Often included.

Then you have to purchase additional software to properly interface with it.

No.

Then you have to insure it. The list goes on.

Investment is not just the cost of the item. I also don't know too many luthiers who have $50k just sitting there, do obviously it has to be financed.

Yes, I'm quite sure many luthiers are undercapitalized.

You live in MI, so I am guessing you have bought a car. Finance a car. How much would you pay in the end for a $24k car?

I wouldn't finance a car. I would enjoy the used market.

How about a house? My actual mortgage obligation is about $800 per month. So why then do I pay $1700 a month to them?

You don't.

You pay them $800 a month, and you pay a bunch of other folks the rest - they just take care of forwarding the money on for you.

My point, no matter what you feel about the numbers, is that buying a piece of equipment doesn't make your costs nothing to start, and requires a
significant up front investment.

Yes - like every cost for every business, no matter the field. These are things you plan for in your business plan.

But then again, you are apparently an expert. Can I see a bass you have made? How much does it cost?

An expert on making basses? Not at all - I've only built a couple.

Very knowledgeable about machining centers? My dad has run big multi-axis CNC systems for years, my stepdad has run big multi-axis CNC systems for years, and I've personally been involved in spec'ing and purchasing a number of machining systems at my last job - both new and used.

 

[One Drop]

No, you can buy a full Haas vertical milling station for $50k. Software, hardware, everything.

Yep - couple thousand bucks.

Often included.

No.

Yes, I'm quite sure many luthiers are undercapitalized.

I wouldn't finance a car. I would enjoy the used market.

You don't.

You pay them $800 a month, and you pay a bunch of other folks the rest - they just take care of forwarding the money on for you.

Yes - like every cost for every business, no matter the field. These are things you plan for in your business plan.

An expert on making basses? Not at all - I've only built a couple.

Very knowledgeable about machining centers? My dad has run big multi-axis CNC systems for years, my stepdad has run big multi-axis CNC systems for years, and I've personally been involved in spec'ing and purchasing a number of machining systems at my last job - both new and used.

50K or 100K, both are substantial investments. Otherwise you are just arguing with his examples and not addressing the point.