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How much should a custom luthier make per hour?
- Thread starter Munjibunga
- Start date
I must be extremely bored, but for some reason I'm going to step back into your little game.
Okay so some people throw out a totally arbitrary dollar figure and you reward them with an equally arbitrary "grade" like we're schoolchildren and you're the schoolmarm.
p take THAT!)Well the fact remains that, while you can sit around and make up pie in the sky numbers all day long, the free market will determine what a product is worth; which is whatever the buyer is willing to give and the seller's willing to take. Unless someone holds a monopoly or some other coercive means to get more, that's all you'll be getting.
Now if your thread was intended to get its readers to view custom bass building in a higher regard than they did previously, and to appreciate the luthiers here in a way that causes the market give their products a higher value, then perhaps you're accomplishing something. But if that was the intent, the question was either poorly constructed or intentionally misleading...
I shall now bend over and receive my grade...
After your post (#147), I was going to write "I don't think custom work and craftsmanship should be turned into a commodity" but I didn't think you'd let me hear the end of it. You're asking others how much a custom luthier should make but those who don't understand what goes into it really aren't qualified to answer. They can have an opinion, though. Unfortunately, their opinion can only come from the standpoint of being a consumer or someone who may appreciate the items but not as someone who will actually buy one.
I'm not a "custom luthier" but I have worked on a lot of instruments for others and no two were the same. I have also built furniture, cabinets, one-off items for various home theater installations and refinished pieces to blend with the home's decor better (a LOT of custom furniture, fine art and antiques). If you re-read my posts, I included a lot of what you agree with in the posts you listed as valid but I guess I don't have the credibility because I don't have the reputation of the others who do this full-time. To be honest, I shouldn't have the same credibility because I haven't done what they do but that doesn't mean I don't have a handle on why a custom luthier SHOULD make/charge more, but can't. Also, they made comments about not making much money but they do this because they want to. At the risk of being lambasted for a "teary-eyed comment", people who do things for little money do it because they have a level of passion for what they do that few others know. So many people are only interested in how much money they and others make that they understand little else. Money is money, but a dollar value can't be put on the satisfaction that comes from designing and building something that turns out as good or better than planned or hoped. Doing something that few others can, better than those who do the same, with a high level of creativity and quality is why these builders can charge what they do but in many cases, as mentioned, it's not enough. That doesn't stop people from trying to low-ball on the price, though. People who understand and appreciate what goes into designing and building things are willing to pay the price and sometimes, even more. If you haven't done something that made the person say "WOW!", you ought to try it. It's one of the reasons some, including me, do what we do.
Opening peoples' eyes to what is involved in building a custom instrument is a good thing but it's not a complete way to determine how much a luthier "should" make, or charge. Someone in a small rural town or working out of their home doesn't need to charge as much as someone who has a large shop and several employees. One who buys lumber at retail may end up paying several times more than someone who processes their own raw materials. It's not possible to assign a universal rate to all.
I believe NYPD officers start at about 41K per year, and they can potentially get shot or killed on any given day. After 5 years of experience, the base leaps to an astounding 56K or so. Your salary really isn't tied to your 'worth' to the overall community in my opinion.
The moron who locked out the NHL players gets 8 million per.
The moron who locked out the NHL players gets 8 million per.
You have been teaching our kids? Hmmm, one wonders why we have such a huge problem in out education system in this country...
The question is, "what do you think something is worth?"
It's the builder's choice to balance profit, quality, years of experience, tool costs, material costs, overhead, insurance, payroll, taxes, advertising, web design/hosting with what the market will bare.
Some employed folks don't know that their company matches their Social Security and Medicare withholdings. That company pays into a fund for State and Federal unemployment.
Our National conversations about healthcare have been ineffective because most people don't know what their Health insurance costs.
"What do you want to pay?" is your question to answer.
It's the builder's choice to balance profit, quality, years of experience, tool costs, material costs, overhead, insurance, payroll, taxes, advertising, web design/hosting with what the market will bare.
Some employed folks don't know that their company matches their Social Security and Medicare withholdings. That company pays into a fund for State and Federal unemployment.
Our National conversations about healthcare have been ineffective because most people don't know what their Health insurance costs.
"What do you want to pay?" is your question to answer.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 398
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Value will always be driven by the consumer. One problem is that we now have a slew of very good quality imports that get compared to non-imports, making many think that it is just a factor of labor cost.
I just bought a very good quality stereo component that was made in China. It cost me a fraction of what the same would cost made anywhere else in the world. So, based on that, should I now declare that everyone at Bose is overpaid?
While at some point there is a diminishing return based on price paid, overall you do get what you pay for. And in the current bass world that means great hand craftsmanship actually comes relatively cheap.
NAMM is a trade show that is almost a mandatory event for even small luthiers. The cost to have a small table there with your logo and product, Attend, have your basses there, man it, sleep, etc. easily will cost you $15000. Think about that. You start your calendar year with an expenditure of thousands, and hope it will net you at least that much in sales. Just to break even.
Advertising isn't cheap either. A typical ad and marketing campaign will go into 5 figures as well. Add to that the fact that yes, you do need some contracted sales team, getting a commission, and that 5 bass a month production for a custom, boutique luthier just barely paid your rent and mortgage and let you eat out at Burger King once.
The higher end, "high production" builders have employees. Even at $8 an hour, which means the employer with benefits expends about $20 per hour, that is a $40,000 per year per employee. So lets say I have three employees making only that wage. I have to sell 80 basses at at least $2000 just to pay them. And I haven't paid myself at all. I won't continue the math, but you can see quickly that cost of bass minus materials divided by average build time is not my hourly wage.
Kevin, Ned, all of them should be gazilllion aires based on the genius and quality of their work. The sad truth is that many will lead just a barely comfortable lifestyle and have to endure threads and posts like these.
I just bought a very good quality stereo component that was made in China. It cost me a fraction of what the same would cost made anywhere else in the world. So, based on that, should I now declare that everyone at Bose is overpaid?
While at some point there is a diminishing return based on price paid, overall you do get what you pay for. And in the current bass world that means great hand craftsmanship actually comes relatively cheap.
NAMM is a trade show that is almost a mandatory event for even small luthiers. The cost to have a small table there with your logo and product, Attend, have your basses there, man it, sleep, etc. easily will cost you $15000. Think about that. You start your calendar year with an expenditure of thousands, and hope it will net you at least that much in sales. Just to break even.
Advertising isn't cheap either. A typical ad and marketing campaign will go into 5 figures as well. Add to that the fact that yes, you do need some contracted sales team, getting a commission, and that 5 bass a month production for a custom, boutique luthier just barely paid your rent and mortgage and let you eat out at Burger King once.
The higher end, "high production" builders have employees. Even at $8 an hour, which means the employer with benefits expends about $20 per hour, that is a $40,000 per year per employee. So lets say I have three employees making only that wage. I have to sell 80 basses at at least $2000 just to pay them. And I haven't paid myself at all. I won't continue the math, but you can see quickly that cost of bass minus materials divided by average build time is not my hourly wage.
Kevin, Ned, all of them should be gazilllion aires based on the genius and quality of their work. The sad truth is that many will lead just a barely comfortable lifestyle and have to endure threads and posts like these.
With advertisements constantly harping on the company being "THE LOW PRICE LEADER!!!!!!!!!!", people have been conditioned to think that great things come at a low price. Now that electronics and other items are completely disposable (meaning, the manufacturers no longer repair them or sell parts so they can be repaired after the warranty ends), they're giving those for whom price is the main factor for buying exactly what they're asking for- cheap stuff that's worth what it costs. Anyone can make things cheaply but it's hard and expensive to make something great. When it requires help to manage all of the processes, cheap goes out the window.
I saw a comment on a woodworking forum- "You can have it fast, cheap or good. Pick two, because you can't have all three".
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
- Jan 12, 2011
- 4,578
- 2,460
- Disclosures
- Artist, Trickfish Amplification Bartolini Emerging Artist, MTD Kingston Emerging Artist. Artist, Tsunami Cables
OK guys don't shoot me for saying this but IMO. wood is cheap, Wood working however is labor intensive therefore not cheap. And it's more of an art than a science. A good bass tech can charge $60 an hr so what's wrong with an expert luthier charging $100 an hr. I've asked several famous bassists if I should take on students and they told me based on my skill level I'm qualified to charge $50 an hr. There is nothing wrong with what current premier Luthiers charge for their basses IMO. Just look at the many choices we have. And consider the after sale service and support you get for just about nothing.
In this day an age, people who are superior craftsman at ANYTHING should get paid the highest. Innovation and expertise should be rewarded. I look around at the next generation, and don't have much hope (at least in my neck of the woods) and I often feel our country is on the verge of losing our edge or may have already gone past the point of no return.
What these luthiers do is creat magic...and that should be rewarded...I see nothing wrong with them making 100 bucks an hour or more.
I am still not sure what was the overall point of this thread...was it to explain why hi-end basses cost so much? Was it against that? (I honestly don't know because on talkbass, up is often down, night is often day, and most don't know what the heck they are talking about)
What these luthiers do is creat magic...and that should be rewarded...I see nothing wrong with them making 100 bucks an hour or more.
I am still not sure what was the overall point of this thread...was it to explain why hi-end basses cost so much? Was it against that? (I honestly don't know because on talkbass, up is often down, night is often day, and most don't know what the heck they are talking about)
I see nothing wrong with $100 / hour but the problem is that CNC machines can crank out "close enough" all day long and that's going to hold down the amount that you really can charge. The really high end basses will still command premium prices just like a Ferrari - a small group will pay premium prices for premium product.
So in reality, I think that the price you can charge for your time ends up being a little more than hourly cost of running a CNC machine and you need to complete the product in a similar amount of time.
I'm not saying that craftmanship isn't worth anything, merely commenting on the competitive factors from automation. And if 3D printing and the garage CNC are any indicators of what's coming - we ain't seen nothing yet. When we toured the Martin Guitar factory they had a robot doing the polishing. My kid was so disappointed that it didn't have laser blasters. It's a robot, right???
So in reality, I think that the price you can charge for your time ends up being a little more than hourly cost of running a CNC machine and you need to complete the product in a similar amount of time.
I'm not saying that craftmanship isn't worth anything, merely commenting on the competitive factors from automation. And if 3D printing and the garage CNC are any indicators of what's coming - we ain't seen nothing yet. When we toured the Martin Guitar factory they had a robot doing the polishing. My kid was so disappointed that it didn't have laser blasters. It's a robot, right???
lucas vigor said:
The next generation will be just fine, just like yours was after grandpa said you sucked. $65-$100 depending on exp.
$20-$50/board foot is cheap (exotic species)? Really? How much is used for an instrument? It's sure not without waste and sometimes, as you know, wood has a mind of its own so the piece that looks incredible and was perfect for the instrument decides to check, warp, have voids, rot, insects or some other problem that wasn't apparent before starting.
The thing is, a luthier has to: be a woodworker, expert finisher, know a bit about electronics, know what sounds good, know how to set up an instrument for best sound and playability, be a businessman & sometimes an employer, teacher of skills, etc. If they actually play, that's even better.
I have a problem with people deciding that craftsmanship is worth a certain amount, even though they don't know everything required to do the job and may never buy anything that was custom-made- your other points are accurate, though. I have no problem with someone bristling when their price is met with "Why is it so much?".
But those examples aren't 'custom'- they're high volume manufacturing. Craftsmanship and machine-made should never be confused because craftsmanship involves intent to make something to a degree of quality.
I have heard that argument before, and don't buy it.
When i was a teen, I remember having real conversations about important things. I remember the seniors at my highschool (when I was a freshman) reading wall street journal. This was the early 80s.
Sorry, but I have kids...their friends come over. I listen to what they talk about. They are morons.
Watch the movie "kids" "13" or "bully"....those are pretty much accurate. I doubt those kids will ever have the expertise to build something important. Hope I am wrong.
gee, Munji! i think you deserve the wage you're making. you are the first person, in my 56yrs, to use the term "orogenic belt" in a sentence!
(whoa.., i had to google it)
What kind of shoes go with an orogenic belt?
Also, what kind of handbag?
Munji, this is a forum. People are here to TALK about BASS. If you simply wanted an answer to your question from the general populus, you should have just made this thread a poll with varying increments. Don't forget to add the option for carrots, because that's what I will vote, as you are obviously not interested to hear what I, or anyone else has to say unless I'm a master-craftsman luthier.
