How 'real' is this '70 P-bass?

[JayGunn]

I borrowed this Pbass from my son in law. The serial number is in the 280000 range, which makes it a 1970 model. I feel totally confident that the neck is original, but the body is pine, not ash. Is this possible?

Looking for comments from you guys who are experts at Fender history...TIA

Pine body shots above. The bass weights 8lbs max. Kinda makes me want a P-bass, since that's my preferred weight for a bass.

 

[JayGunn]

Here are shots of the bridge and filled screw holes:

 

[JayGunn]

And here is the neck and headstock:

Note that the fretboard is integral with the neck, all one piece. Black dots on the face of the nexk as well as the edge. Nut is 1 5/8".

 

[P. Aaron]

It looks like it might be an (3-piece) alder body. Looks mostly original. Always await a few observant TB’ers to actually get a complete idea.

Not sure about the bridge’s saddles.

 

[Mr.Fingers]

Seen some heavy mods, but the dowel marks are there on the back, the correct long G intonation screw,... All checks out for an early 1970's P-bass.

However, the neck has a very late 1975 logo (small font, no serial number), which does not match the serial number range... So either the neckplate is not original to the bass, or the body & neck are from different years. What do the potmeters & pickup codes say? I say it's a 1975 P-bass with an older neckplate.

The pickguard shows a thumbrest at the bass-side, which denotes 1974 or later. Remove the pickguard and see if there are holes on the treble side. If not: 1974 or later body.

 

[JimmyThunder]

some great answers above.
I just want to say, what a cool looking bass. Can't get enough of that well-worn "stripped down rock machine" look. I had a '78 that was aesthetically very very similar and I don't think I've ever owned a better looking bass in my opinion.

 

[FranF]

Neck is a '76, body is legit, and alder.

 

[JayGunn]

Wow...I knew there'd be some helpful historians who really know this stuff. Many thanks.

Naturally I don't want to do anything challenging to its authenticity. I will take off the pickguard very carefully and look at the screw holes (pictures to come), clean up a little, and I'll treat it to a much needed set of strings.

Also I'll measure the resonant peak and check the magnet strength with my home made gaussmeter. Why not?

The action is quite high now, but the neck has very little relief under tuned-up string tension. So first I'll try lowering the saddles of course. There's a little more relief at the treble side than at the bass side, sorry to say. Not sure yet how good I can make the action. Hoping for "decently playable," not "ultra low."

 

[P. Aaron]

P.S. Body appears to be alder, historically typical of Fenders. Ash was also used though it seems to be in later years to be considered an ‘upgrade’ vs early years where it was a bit more common.

 

[JayGunn]

Followup pictures--some problems:

Progress: I took off the pickguard and photographed the screw holes as suggested by @Mr.Fingers above. Shown below. I checked the relief properly. Treble and bass side are virtually the same. Took off the neck, more photos below, tightened the truss rod 1/4 turn. It moved! Relief got better! I am falling in love with this bass. Put on new old strings that still had some life in them, lowered the bridge saddles, action is pretty good now. BUT I fire up my Peavey Minx 110 practice amp, got some loud pops, no sound, then faint sound, very thin and trebbly, had to crank the amp up to an 8 to hear it at all.

Project #1: determine whether the bass body is a 1970 or not.

Remove the pickguard and see if there are holes on the treble side. If not: 1974 or later body.

So here's the bare body:

Conclusion as I understand it: it's a 74 or later, consistent with the neck.

 

[two fingers]

Followup pictures--some problems:

Progress: I took off the pickguard and photographed the screw holes as suggested by @Mr.Fingers above. Shown below. I checked the relief properly. Treble and bass side are virtually the same. Took off the neck, more photos below, tightened the truss rod 1/4 turn. It moved! Relief got better! I am falling in love with this bass. Put on new old strings that still had some life in them, lowered the bridge saddles, action is pretty good now. BUT I fire up my Peavey Minx 110 practice amp, got some loud pops, no sound, then faint sound, very thin and trebbly, had to crank the amp up to an 8 to hear it at all.

Project #1: determine whether the bass body is a 1970 or not. So here's the bare body:
View attachment 4164081
Conclusion as I understand it: it's a 74 or later, consistent with the neck.

Pics of the codes on the potentiometers would help.

While you have the hood up, pop the pickups out and let's see the back of them as well.

 

[BurningSkies]

Followup pictures--some problems:

Progress: I took off the pickguard and photographed the screw holes as suggested by @Mr.Fingers above. Shown below. I checked the relief properly. Treble and bass side are virtually the same. Took off the neck, more photos below, tightened the truss rod 1/4 turn. It moved! Relief got better! I am falling in love with this bass. Put on new old strings that still had some life in them, lowered the bridge saddles, action is pretty good now. BUT I fire up my Peavey Minx 110 practice amp, got some loud pops, no sound, then faint sound, very thin and trebbly, had to crank the amp up to an 8 to hear it at all.

Project #1: determine whether the bass body is a 1970 or not. So here's the bare body:
View attachment 4164081
Conclusion as I understand it: it's a 74 or later, consistent with the neck.

That body is not 70... the thumb rest holes are in post-mid-73 placement. I'd suggest it matches the neck, which obviously dates to post 75 due to the logo.

Oooof. Those frets are BEAT.

 

[BurningSkies]

Also, the routing for the controls changed mid 73 as well. Here's a shot of my old (early) 1973, compare the control rout to the body you're looking at.

 

[JayGunn]

Yes I do have shots of the backs of the pots AND of the pickups. Here is where it gets really tricky for me. The coaching I'd really appreciate is how to "fix this up" in the least vintage-spoiling way. I can see a few options as described below.

But first here are the pots. I looked them up, hoping they're original. Since the shafts are 6mm it seems very unlikely.

Both pots are market EP085, which is CTS and they're still available. 250K audio taper. On the other side you can see that they need those little brass bushings to fit the 1/4" hole knobs, one of which looks original. Since they are 6mm shafts doesn't that mean they're after-market? Fender is selling their "Pure Vintage" line of replacement parts and they have a solid shaft which I am guessing is 1/4"...

Here are the knobs. Both use the sleeves. The tone knob's sleeve stayed in the knob.

Pickup next and that's the REAL challenge.

 

[JayGunn]

I won't draw out the suspense. I put it all back together, adjusted the saddles tuned it up and plugged it in. No sound. I wiggled the cord, ran the pots back and forth a few times, heard a few pops and no scratchiness. After the second pop sound I discovered that if I turn my amp up to about 8 I can hear the Pbass, but very bright and thin, and very faint.

Removed the pick guard, removed the pickup, check for a short. The bass half has a DC resistance of 5.6K; the treble side is open.

The bass side has that long number stamped on it: 161775, but the non-functioning treble side has a short number: 9361. Is this bizarre? Here they are from the front. They look much nicer from 4' away:

Coming up next, the final part of today's ShowAndTell, and my request for your suggestions about getting this wonderful bass to play nice.

 

[JayGunn]

Here are the issues with respect to authenticity:
-- minor issue is that 3 of the pickguard screws are shiny, the rest quite rusty. Would you just leave them that way? Not a dramatic problem because I can leave them as is, and when/if my son-in-law decides to sell it, any simple cosmetic issues can be dealt with then.
-- the other minor issue is that one of the 4 pickup mounting screws has a boogered up phillips. I don't want to put it back because it was very hard to get out. New set of 4? Replace only one? Get a spare and make it get rusty (relic it)?
-- the major issue is the pickup of course. Can't call it playable until it is replaced or repaired. One option--sent it to a pro to be rewound. Another option, get a Fender reproduction of the original. The all-things approach is to retire the old pickup for "the future" and put in any pickup I'd like for now. Fix the bad one some time before it goes on the market if that should ever happen.
-- the pots. On a 48 year old bass what are the chances the original pots still exist and work okay? Seems tiny to me. So maybe replaced pots are customary on a vintage bass and I could go with anything, Fender Pure Vintage, Bourns (benefit--1/4" shafts), CTS etc. Is there a better solution? Leaving them as is might work. Those pops I heard could have been the jack, the short in the pickup or a pot. Maybe I'll put all 3 parts--2 pots and the jack--into the same save-for-later bag as the bad pickup, put in all new for reliability, and let Joe worry about it if he decides to sell it. (He likes that it's valuable and he has kept it for at least 10 years so I think he'll not get restless soon to cash it in).

And here's the last possibility. Maybe I am overthinking this. I don't want to de-value this work of art, though. I replace the pickguard, pickup, pots, jack and screws. I carefully preserve all the old parts. (Maybe after getting the broken pickup rewound). We both enjoy playing this bass in its new state of being upgraded for playability.

Eager to hear what you'd do in my shoes. I'll have the bass indefinitely, but will return it this year and would like to give it back workable and not de-valued.

 

[JayGunn]

Last pix.

I don't recognize that circle stamp, do you?

I own 3 basses (not counting this one of course). All are between 8 and 8.5 lbs. This one fits right in at 8lbs 2oz. My old MIM Jazz was over 10...

 

[MIMike]

The neck looks correct to me. The body, as previously said is post 73 with the thumb rest location. I believe the body has been stripped of its original finish. Did you take a pic of the neck pocket when you had it removed from the body? They usually had the natural finishes on ash bodies. Also, those pots do not appear correct to me. I could be wrong, but I thought mid 70’s all had solid nylon shafts on them. The knobs should be flat on top and those look like domed tele knobs. The pickups look legit...even if they don’t function properly.

 

[rickdog]

Regarding the pickups - you might be having the same problem I had on my '72 Jazz a long time ago. Both pickups had failed in a way similar to what you're describing: weak, tinny sound, measuring open circuit. I hadn't noticed it because my bass has a big ol' Gibson mudbucker added up by the neck, it was supplying plenty of low end. I was fortunate to have Mike Lull working on it, he told me about the problem and recommended I send the pickups to Lindy Fralin to be rewound.

I actually talked with Lindy on the phone. He told me that in the '70s, Fender was wrapping the pole pieces in masking tape and winding the coils over that; and old masking tape has a tendency to degrade, turn acidic, and dissolve the coils from the inside out. He said he'd seen this a lot. He rewound the pickups supposedly to vintage original specs; but I don't remember them sounding as good when they were brand new as they did after his rewind.

So I'd recommend sending both pickups to Lindy for a rewind. I say both, because if one has failed, the other may be on the way out; and you'll want them both sounding equally good.

 

[FranF]

Non original pots, one non original pickup half from '70-71, non original knobs.