How To Fire a Band Member

[Joe Nerve]

To be a singer-songwriter you kinda need to have a bigger than average ego. Especially if you're merely good (as opposed to exceptional) at it.

The comment that she could just junk the entire band and retire to the basement with hubby and loop and drum program everything would be more of a concern to me. Because that's not ego talking. That's a flat out "FU! I don't need anybody!" statement. And those are usually coming out of someone who has no real respect for, or appreciation of, anyone's opinions, talents or skills but their own. Which are generally limited.

I also hate to stereotype...but...I've run into similar attitudes when dealing with many female "solo artists." (As in Solo and Artist with a capital S and A.) They don't think in ways that use any indefinite articles. There's no "the" or "a" or "an" in their vocabulary. It's all "my" "me" and "mine" -or- "you" and "yours." Everything has to specifically belong to someone. There's no such thing as collective ownership or credit - of anything.

The other thing I've seen happen when dealing with that type of person is the habit of erratically and arbitrarily fluctuating between insisting when something in or about the band is "just business" and when it's "family." Which usually means: "I can be as cold-blooded as I want whenever I want because it's a business - but if anybody calls me on it, I have the right to feel hurt and get angry because I think of you as my children - and this band is my baby."

Good luck if you're trying to work with one of those.

But in this case, it's pretty obvious (in the wake of part of the response he got back) that the OP is merely a hired musician rather than an actual member of her "band." So if that's the case, you do whatever is asked when it's asked for, and suck it up - or you go home.

Re the first 2 paragraphs there, I agree 100%. Re the woman stuff, I completely disagree. I've worked with many women singer/songwriters and have pretty much always been treated with the utmost respect. Ive had way more issues with male BL/singer/songwriters. It's not a guy girl thing, it's a people thing.

 

[the yeti]

The comment that she could just junk the entire band and retire to the basement with hubby and loop and drum program everything would be more of a concern to me. Because that's not ego talking. That's a flat out "FU! I don't need anybody!" statement. And those are usually coming out of someone who has no real respect for, or appreciation of, anyone's opinions, talents or skills but their own. Which are generally limited.

or of someone who feels backed into a corner.

 

[hrodbert696]

It's either that or she could just be a bit of a megalomaniac.

Maybe, but I thought Jive's post put it in a good perspective. I know lots of people with home recording studios who have a grand ole time working up originals by themselves or with just one partner. It's a big decision with a lot of headaches to decide to step out of that bubble, recruit a band rather than do everything yourself, and try to make it all work. The whole BM forum shows how it can all go south six ways to Sunday, even before the bass player you recruited with great difficulty comes up to you wanting you to fire the drummer you recruited with great difficulty. I don't think it's necessarily megalomania, just venting frustration, for her to say she could just as easily go back to her Pro Tools and not have to put up with the drama.

 

[40Hz]

Re the first 2 paragraphs there, I agree 100%. Re the woman stuff, I completely disagree. I've worked with many women singer/songwriters and have pretty much always been treated with the utmost respect. Ive had way more issues with male BL/singer/songwriters. It's not a guy girl thing, it's a people thing.

Up until the early 80s, I'd agree with you up to a point, and be the first to jump on my half-assed "analysis" of the current crop of singer-sonqwriters. But starting around the early 90s, I noticed a seismic shift. Please understand that I'm not criticizing so much as calling attention to something I think musicians for hire may need to be aware of when dealing with some of today's "solo" artist types. (And yes, the "my baby" and "my children" thing is definitely a gender specific thing based on what I've been involved with. And there were several I was involved with.) And I see the same thing, not just in music, but in general business as well, where about 60% of the business owners I work with are female - and more power to them. Although it may not be PC to say so, there are gender differences in perception and fundamental attitudes that I think anyone in business deliberately ignores at their peril. Musicians included.

But like everything I post, this opinion is only based on what I've experienced myself, so YMMV.

As far as solo male singer-songwriters go, I'm not qualified to discuss them much. But that's because I could never listen to one of them for more than 15 minutes before I was looking for an exit sign. Musically, they're just "not there" for me. So in that respect (again speaking purely from my own POV) I think the ladies generally have it all over the guys for that particular style and genre of music.

But that's me. Just one more person with an opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I believe it is your belief that is creating your reality. In your "analysis".

 

[40Hz]

or of someone who feels backed into a corner.

That too. And those are probably among the most dangerous of them all. As anybody who has ever shared a work cubicle with an RCC (Rabid Cornered Co-Worker) can tell you.

 

[Capt.Obvious]

Edit: Skip over the first few seconds of guitar tuning.

I didn't say it's never been done before, even mentioned the tune Chameleon by Herbie Hancock which was also originally just a key board bass part.

These guys are really good but doing something unusual. How many hot jazz like that is sans bass? Ya, there's a few crazy good keyboards out there but Lord's sound is lacking without a double bass contribution, my opinion of course but there's nothing terribly interesting happening in his walking line.

I stand by my assessment that the double bass is THE iconic instrument of jazz.

 

[40Hz]

I'm guessing you don't play any jazz...

Nope. Not any more. Mostly by choice. I started on upright and playing jazz. Did that mostly for the first 7 years. Got tired of the whole jazz scene with it's perpetual kowtowing to "the greats," the miserable guild system that came into play whenever trying to get paying gigs, and the endless competitiveness for "standing in the local scene" and for establishing your "cool" eventually killed whatever love I once had for the genre. That and the whole "mystique" surrounding the "real" bass (and thank-you Mr. Ron Carter for that!) and string bass playing in general. I owned one. I played one. And I never saw the point of being blown away with myself just because I did. I love the string bass to be sure. It's a lovely bass instrument. I just don't feel the need to create a church around it.

The bass, double bass specifically, is sort of THE instrument in the jazz band. That thumping, walking, string bass sound IS jazz. The drums are just accenting or coloring the groove set by the bass...


...I disagree with "It also pays to sometimes remember that a bass player is probably the most easily replaced member in any group. And there are plenty of replacements out there to choose from."

The bass note in any song, since the beginning of western music, is arguably the most important note. It's the foundation or root of the tree of the harmony! If you want to make a go at band without a competent melodic low end specialist, good luck.

You're preaching to the choir - and I agree completely. But my reality (as a bass player) doesn't seem to be shared quite as enthusiastically by the rest of the members of most bands I've been directly or indirectly involved with.

Maybe I'm a bit spoiled with my double bass or the Seattle area, but I don't see this at all. In my experience, there's fewer actual bass players out there than anything else. Just fine by me! Sure there's a few guitar guys that can hack out a bass line when needed, but god help you if you need to play Chameleon all of the sudden.

Really? Hmm...maybe I should get another double bass and move to Seattle? Because that's not the situation around where I am at all. Jazz is so marginalized that one of the absolute best jazzers (IMO) in the area can't get much that pays worth a damn gig wise. And the demand for jazz lessons (which he also offers) is so low that he recently took a position as the music instructor/director at an area magnet school to cover his living expenses. His best gig paycheck this year was $700 (for two days, 4 hours each) playing for one of those huge liquor megastore openings. Pretty sad IMO.

About the only 'regular' group that plays my area with a full-time upright player is Caravan of Thieves.

But so it goes.

 

[Capt.Obvious]

I feel this.

OP, in hindsight it's obvious your particular choice of approach was too forward for this project, and maybe for any project in some people's eyes, but her reaction to you was much more inappropriate and abrasive.

She basically treated you like an easily replaceable machine; like an object. "My blender stopped working so I bought a new one and threw the old one away."

If you can't provide some input you're just a tool, a drone. "Shut up and play bass."

I may not have handled it how you did, can't honestly say, but if I had, her attitude in her response to my concerns would be very difficult for me to accept.

You mentioned that from now on you will bend over and take it. If the project is worth it to you, fine, but I agree with your assessment....

Good luck.

Thanks dude, ya, she kinda went off a little but it's also just a bad time for her. Didn't realize they had a death in the family the day before I had sent that email, so it especially rubbed her the wrong way.

She did eventually concede my points about musicality but wants to lean towards working with the drummer and give him a sincere chance to grow with us. Much more humane approach really. At least we arrived at some conclusion through dialogue and thank goodness for her understanding nature.

 

[Stealth Fighter]

I didn't say it's never been done before, even mentioned the tune Chameleon by Herbie Hancock which was also originally just a key board bass part.

These guys are really good but doing something unusual. How many hot jazz like that is sans bass? Ya, there's a few crazy good keyboards out there but Lord's sound is lacking without a double bass contribution, my opinion of course but there's nothing terribly interesting happening in his walking line.

I stand by my assessment that the double bass is THE iconic instrument of jazz.

Listen an learn.

 

[40Hz]

^ My uncle (who was the professional musician and diehard jazzer in my family) always maintained it was the piano, brushed drums and cymbals plus horn trio that was the iconic jazz instrument. And his primary instrument was the upright.

He's also the one that suggested (around 1973 or thereabouts) that if I wanted to get work (as opposed to just playing for my soul) I'd better get myself an electric bass and branch out from jazz - "because the times they are a changing."

Fortunately there was R&B, Motown, and Rock to fill the void. So I was perfectly happy.

 

[Capt.Obvious]

Nope. Not any more. Mostly by choice. I started on upright and playing jazz. Did that mostly for the first 7 years. Got tired of the whole jazz scene with it's perpetual kowtowing to "the greats," the miserable guild system that came into play whenever trying to get paying gigs, and the endless competitiveness for "standing in the local scene" and for establishing your "cool" eventually killed whatever love I once had for the genre. That and the whole "mystique" surrounding the "real" bass (and thank-you Mr. Ron Carter for that!) and string bass playing in general. I owned one. I played one. And I never saw the point of being blown away with myself just because I did. I love the string bass to be sure. It's a lovely bass instrument. I just don't feel the need to create a church around it.



You're preaching to the choir - and I agree completely. But my reality (as a bass player) doesn't seem to be shared quite as enthusiastically by the rest of the members of most bands I've been directly or indirectly involved with.




Really? Hmm...maybe I should get another double bass and move to Seattle? Because that's not the situation around where I am at all. Jazz is so marginalized that one of the absolute best jazzers (IMO) in the area can't get much that pays worth a damn gig wise. And the demand for jazz lessons (which he also offers) is so low that he recently took a position as the music instructor/director at an area magnet school to cover his living expenses. His best gig paycheck this year was $700 (for two days, 4 hours each) playing for one of those huge liquor megastore openings. Pretty sad IMO.

About the only 'regular' group that plays my area with a full-time upright player is Caravan of Thieves.

But so it goes.

Someone beat you to the chuch idea anyway.

The Bass Church

She's got some nice instruments down there.

I read recently that the Seattle area is actually on par with the jazz scene in New York and may even be better for jazz, not sure why it's so big here, it just is. There's several high schools in the area that are constantly kicking out little monster players, so it is very competitive, mostly for horn players it seems though.

As much as you could cut into business with your bass stylings, I wouldn't dissuade you from moving up. The music scene is just so dependent on the region. If you want to play live, a lot, have to move to a town with a lot of live music.

I think it also might have something to do with Seattles climate. Like Alaska, people up here seek out primarily indoor entertainment so live music is important in that regard. Whether it's a soft jazz thing while your eating dinner or a rock show in some club for screaming kids.

 

[Capt.Obvious]

Listen an learn.

And there's reasons I never bought his albums, it's boring without live bass.

Am I supposed to post some awesome combo WITH a live bass and say 'told ya so?'

Never said it can't be done, but it's lame when it is.

But ya, how many bass players does it take to screw in a light bulb?

NONE! The keyboard player can do it with her left hand.

 

[Capt.Obvious]

And as a person who doesn't even play a bass player convincingly on TV, I'm perfectly OK with the whole situation out here, too. Don't tell anybody. Especially my bandmates who haven't figured it out yet.

However, bass players are actually gods. That's something else other band members have a tough time figuring out. We only tolerate them when it suits our purposes.

I let it slip already, my bad.

 

[Capt.Obvious]

To be a singer-songwriter you kinda need to have a bigger than average ego. Especially if you're merely good (as opposed to exceptional) at it.

The comment that she could just junk the entire band and retire to the basement with hubby and loop and drum program everything would be more of a concern to me. Because that's not ego talking. That's a flat out "FU! I don't need anybody!" statement. And those are usually coming out of someone who has no real respect for, or appreciation of, anyone's opinions, talents or skills but their own. Which are generally limited.

I also hate to stereotype...but...I've run into similar attitudes when dealing with many female "solo artists." (As in Solo and Artist with a capital S and A.) They don't think in ways that use any indefinite articles. There's no "the" or "a" or "an" in their vocabulary. It's all "my" "me" and "mine" -or- "you" and "yours." Everything has to specifically belong to someone. There's no such thing as collective ownership or credit - of anything.

The other thing I've seen happen when dealing with that type of person is the habit of erratically and arbitrarily fluctuating between insisting when something in or about the band is "just business" and when it's "family." Which usually means: "I can be as cold-blooded as I want whenever I want because it's a business - but if anybody calls me on it, I have the right to feel hurt and get angry because I think of you as my children - and this band is my baby."

Good luck if you're trying to work with one of those.

But in this case, it's pretty obvious (in the wake of part of the response he got back) that the OP is merely a hired musician rather than an actual member of her "band." So if that's the case, you do whatever is asked when it's asked for, and suck it up - or you go home.

Very insightful post right here, hit the nail on the head in terms of her general attitude. I can forgive much of it because it is primarily all of her own music that she used to sing duet with her hubby. Technically I came up with the bass lines to her progressions and she recognizes that much at least. She'll get on me if I play it too different from the album because she insists that we sound as much like the album as possible. At least I'm repetitively playing my own bass lines anyway.

 

[40Hz]

I believe it is your belief that is creating your reality. In your ********** analysis.

Very possibly since I'm neither omniscient nor infallible. But my reality (regardless of its genesis) is the only reality I have to go by. And it's tempered by a lot of deep thinking and soul searching on my part over the years. I'm not the sort to come to hasty conclusions, nor am I in the habit of making snap judgments, where people are concerned. So take anything I post for what it is. One person's considered observations and opinion freely offered as nothing more than something to consider.

 

[40Hz]

Clearly he wasn't a bass player!

He was actually. Big time! He's who got me into music - and playing bass. And he was easily ten times better than I'll probably ever be. But only for jazz - so no worries!

 

[delta7fred]

she insists that we sound as much like the album as possible

I don't want to sound harsh, but it sounded like two different bands to me, especially the lead vocals.

 

[Capt.Obvious]

He was actually. Big time! He's who got me into music - and playing bass. And he was easily ten times better than I'll probably ever be. But only for jazz - so no worries!

I tried to delete that post as I missed the part where you said he WAS a string bass man. haha

He was old though, and therefore wrong!

 

[Joe Nerve]

Apologies on my last post, I either misread 40HZs post before that, or it was edited. Thought he called MY analysis half-assed... anyhow... yeah.