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How to get a good FOH sound?

#41
Here is a simple suggestion:

Maybe experiment with a new DI box. I know that sounds a bit corny but a friend of mine and his band switched sound companies and gave him a different DI box to go through. He loathed the sound he was getting out of FOH.

He then plugged in his original Radial JDI and whammo...back to the sound he liked.

So that might be a suggestion that could work. A good DI isn't very costly so it can't hurt right?

Hope that helps.
 
#42
I have never had the luxury of a sound man to take care of the mix, so years ago, I bought a very good wireless for my bass. Getting out front and listening at your soundcheck(and occasionally during the gig) and learning the board are what you need. Take some of this good advice given by some of the other posts and use your own ears. I use an ipod to set the initial levels/EQ of the board to fit the venue, then turn off the mains and get the stage levels/mix where they should be. Not to loud is the most important. Then bring up the mains, then subs.
 
#43
jtc_hunter said:
I have never had the luxury of a sound man to take care of the mix, so years ago, I bought a very good wireless for my bass. Getting out front and listening at your soundcheck(and occasionally during the gig) and learning the board are what you need. Take some of this good advice given by some of the other posts and use your own ears. I use an ipod to set the initial levels/EQ of the board to fit the venue, then turn off the mains and get the stage levels/mix where they should be. Not to loud is the most important. Then bring up the mains, then subs.
Click to expand...

THAT my friend is an excellent idea. Getting out in front and listening is always a good thing to do.

Makes me want to go out and get a new wireless.

Which wireless do you use
 
#44
JimmyM said:
most soundmen i know do the exact opposite...get the mains sound happening, then add subs. if you start with the subs, all you'll hear is low end and won't be able to get a fix on the other instruments.

and the stage mix is ALWAYS vital, especially with guys going ampless. if you're not comfy onstage, you'll never do your best.
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Big +1. Never add the subs into the equation until last.

First things first. ALWAYS get your stage sound set first. The PA is meant to bring your sound out front. Because drums are acoustic, everything needs to be based off that. Once you have a decent balanced stage volume (enough to be pleasing to all onstage but not overly loud) get the drums (if mic'd) into the PA and get them set.

A good compressor and the knowledge on how to use one is a great advantage in a PA. A lot of reverberating frequencies in the lo-mids and lows that seem to overwhelm the sound are often not even coming from the bass, but rather from the drums themselves. Drum heads are sneaky things in that they will vibrate from other sound sources even when not being played. A compressor that also has a noise gate, combined with the knowledge on how to use one, can solve most of these "low end" drum head issues.

It took us quite a while to finally find that almost every issue we ever had with "boomy" frequencies causing problems were actually from the drums. Fix that and you'll find most issues go away. Think about it. You play a note on bass and then stop...but the sound keeps droning on a bit. You start messing with the bass attempting to fix it (either on your rig or the PA). What is happening is your bass note (or lows on the guitar) start sending a drumhead into vibration, which then gets into a mic (either that drum mic or another onstage). The head reverberation is the culprit, not the sound source that set it in motion.

A compressor is not a total solution, but rather another tool to use in sound reinforcement. To me, the single most important tool is a 1/3 band EQ. Knowing how to deal with frequencies in every room you play is paramount. Short of using an analyzer, it's easy enough to simply raise each frequency band to the point of feedback and cutting it back below that. That is a good starting point.

We have a dedicated EQ and compressor for the the drums alone to help isolate the reverberating drumhead issue. Then we also have an EQ for the PA itself and another for the monitors. Treating each (drums, monitors and PA) as separate things each deserving of proper EQ'ing will eliminate most all sound issues.
 
#45
I don't know if many people caught the fact that the guitar players in his band are ampless. This might sound strange to you, but why not try going ampless yourself? You could still use your same head and the DI out to the board.

It would cut down on stage volume, and it would be easier to balance your sound out front without too much competition from stage.

My guitar player and I are both ampless and I've been really happy with the sound both on stage and out front. I also use a wireless and am able to check it out from off stage.

The only thing you have to worry about then is getting a balanced sound in the monitors with the drums. If your drummer is sensible you should be able to find a level that everyone can live with.

Good luck!
 
#46
I agree about going ampless. If not then unplug your bass cab and get your pa sound first. Once you have done that mess with your stage sound. You might even want to turn your amp around like a monitor. This will keep you from having to mix two different sound sources.
 
#49
I think it's worth mentioning that a lot of young bands doing their own sound don't know how to soundcheck effectively. If there's one thing I've found invaluable is to take turns getting yourselves set up with a good tone. It's impossible to setup your sound if the drummer is randomly thumping and the guitarist is widdling away like van halen. I've had to shout at one of our guitarists a number of time to stop effing playing and let me sort myself out. Seriously, you need like 5 or 10 mins alone time each to tweak. It takes twice as long to do when everyone else is mindlessly bashing away on their instrument. Besides, it's highly unprofessional to do this in a venue.

Secondly, sort your mix out in stages. As much as guitarist think they are the star of the show, they are complimentary instruments.

Start of with drums, then bass, getting it to gel between the kick and snare. Then vocals, this is you foundation to build from. The guitars in one at a time. Try to get them to roll of their low end as much as poss. It might sound a little odd on it's own, but will sit much better in the mix - this is often a cause of a muddy mix, too much bass in the guitars. The low end is yours and the drums, guitars should stay out of it.

If you have a couple of guitars, eq them to take up different areas of mid/high mid/high end which will give them separation, and make sure they don't clash with the vocal. Backing vocals can take up a surprisingly small part of the spectrum, slot them in where there's a gap!
 
#50
Some excellent advise there..Thanks guys!
We play in a ton of different places, (mostly small)and near all sound like crap at some point or all the time..

EQing without a sound man is a bitch, and most venues are not keen on all the racket when setting up...so time is of the essence..
Most places aren't that large in what we do, and lets face it, unless you're running some giant Martin system or something the bass out front is never going to sound as good as your onstage gear. (well you know, if you have good gear)

I've tried all different methods of sending my bass signal, but have just gone back to a Tonebone Bassbone DI signal straight to mixer with a Bass VT in the effects loop...and then try to set it up so the tone out front doesn't gag me with a stick and make me cry in my beer at the hopelessness of it all.

Enough of my yummy tone bleeds through from onstage that the PA is just kind of reinforcing the lows, and lets face it guys/gals pretty nobody out front unless professional bass players, appreciates the amazing onstage tone we have from tons of expensive cool gear and 40 years of learning,tweaking and perfecting finger technique etcetc/...lol

They hear boom boom, and a lot don't even know what the guy/gal who's not playing blazing guitar riffs is doing.

I now figure that if the balance out front is good, the singers and guitar and kick sound good, the bass is not too loud and just doing it's job in the mix, all is good...my sound onstage is killer, and if a discerning listener can actually hear that out front, great!
 
#52
cflat said:
Some excellent advise there..Thanks guys!
We play in a ton of different places, (mostly small)and near all sound like crap at some point or all the time..

EQing without a sound man is a bitch, and most venues are not keen on all the racket when setting up...so time is of the essence..
Most places aren't that large in what we do, and lets face it, unless you're running some giant Martin system or something the bass out front is never going to sound as good as your onstage gear. (well you know, if you have good gear)

I've tried all different methods of sending my bass signal, but have just gone back to a Tonebone Bassbone DI signal straight to mixer with a Bass VT in the effects loop...and then try to set it up so the tone out front doesn't gag me with a stick and make me cry in my beer at the hopelessness of it all.

Enough of my yummy tone bleeds through from onstage that the PA is just kind of reinforcing the lows, and lets face it guys/gals pretty nobody out front unless professional bass players, appreciates the amazing onstage tone we have from tons of expensive cool gear and 40 years of learning,tweaking and perfecting finger technique etcetc/...lol

They hear boom boom, and a lot don't even know what the guy/gal who's not playing blazing guitar riffs is doing.
Click to expand...
you had me up intil this part. never underestimate what the audience knows and doesn't. i've had audience members who know nothing about playing music tell us about our mix in detail, point out when we make mistakes, etc. audiences vary in musical knowledge, but you can always count on quite a few people in every audience to know details, and you can always count on the majority of your audience to know if you sound good or bad.

I now figure that if the balance out front is good, the singers and guitar and kick sound good, the bass is not too loud and just doing it's job in the mix, all is good...my sound onstage is killer, and if a discerning listener can actually hear that out front, great!
Click to expand...
they can, trust me.
 
#53
haha...that's true..I said a LOT, not all.
I had some guy on the weekend, not a player, but as soon as he opened his mouth you knew he wasn't a dolt..anyhow he thought we sounded great out front..Ver complimentary.

Nothing worse than bad FOH sound.

We near always sound good, so that's not a problem..

My main point is that it's near impossible to get our 'near Nirvana bass tone' from all our fabulous gear these days, out front through the PA... Maybe the gear and sound guy at Crossroads can make that happen, but us road warrior types can't quite reach that level in 'Joe's bar & rib joint'..or the place with the mirror stripper tiles across the back of the stage and on the low sloping ceiling..lol..the sweaty tit marks don't do much dampening.
 
#55
cflat said:
My main point is that it's near impossible to get our 'near Nirvana bass tone' from all our fabulous gear these days, out front through the PA... Maybe the gear and sound guy at Crossroads can make that happen, but us road warrior types can't quite reach that level in 'Joe's bar & rib joint'..or the place with the mirror stripper tiles across the back of the stage and on the low sloping ceiling..lol..the sweaty tit marks don't do much dampening.
Click to expand...
i'll trade damping for sweaty tit marks any day of the week!
 

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