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how to get punchy tone?

#21
Brad,

What I meant is that when we refer to James Jamerson, or to Jeff Berlin (who, as a teacher and clinic player, made a speciality out of playing pretty cheap equipment), we shouldn't forget their sound is modelled by sound engineers. What you finally hear from them has been modelled, EQ adjustments (yes, active electronics) were done on the console and probably tube compressors were used.

Take a Squier Affinity P-Bass and a Peavey TNT 115, put them between Jeff Berlin's hands, and wait... It won't be long until it sounds great, because :

1/ Jeff Berlin is an exceptional player,
2/ He has excellent sound engineers.

The combination of these factors makes miracles.

But who here has Jeff Berlin's skill and staff?

When I suggest that Razorbakc swaps his Crate with an Ampeg combo, that's just because, from what I heard, I do believe any Ampeg combo kills all Crate amps (combos and rigs) I heard. That's just my opinion, as well as what you post is a reflect of yours.

However, I do agree on the fact that the way fingers (or pick) attack the string is probably the main factor of tone and punch.

But if, as Razorbakc stated, he experiences problems with having punch even when playing pick (and it's far easier to get punch with a pick than with fingers), I do believe he needs a better amp.

All the best,
 
#24
We do seem to see a great number of "buy a new rig" answers to many questions. More often than not, it is at least partly warrented.

It is most likely the Crate amp that is your culprit. Depending of course, on how you are playing it and exactly which model it is. Which model is it, exactly?

"Punch" is hard to characterize with words, but if you are talking about a strong, quick, percussive response then there is one thing that you MUST have, I'll say again MUST HAVE to get that.

Head room.

You have to have plenty of juice in the bank to get the rig to quickly respond like that.

In addition the speakers in the rig have to be in excellent condition to get the quick and clean response that you are looking for.

If you are pushing your Crate close to it's limits, you are not likely to a punchy tone, as there isn't enough power there to make it happen. If you have been pushing it like this for a while, the speakers are likely to be a little loose as well.

Try turning the amp well down. See if you can get something closer to the tone you are looking for. This may do you no good when playing with the band, but you'll know that what your problem is.

It isn't so much that you have 'pro" equipment, you just have to match your expectations to the equipment you have. You can push a $1200 Eden head past its limits and it will sound like cheese.

I have heard plenty of budget rigs that sounded great. It is just a matter of using within its designed specs.


Chas
 
#25
I know, Jeff. I also know that getting a Crate 1-15 combo to sound punchy is easy... if you know what you're doing.

I understand where jaylanb is coming from... but I don't agree with his 2 reasons for why Jeff sounds like he sounds. The most compelling reason is number 1. Number 2 has little to do with it because he gets the same tone live. What sound engineer is "modeling" Jeff's sound at his clinics? It's Jeff, an inexpensive bass and an inexpensive amp.

Jeff Berlin plays Crate live, too. No studio magic there. Maybe I'm out of the loop but how many here need an engineer to get a punchy sound? I don't... I can get punch out of a Pignose.

As far as Razorbakc's experience, we still know practically nothing about his setup and playing technique. We know that he uses "some" Crate amp and a pick is involved. In person it would probably take less than a minute to figure out what is wrong, whether it's:

Smiley face EQ
treble up on an active bass
bass that naturally is not punchy
undersized strings
small underpowered Crate amp
etc.

Until we know more, these suggestions to buy something just don't make sense. If he already has sufficient EQ on the amp he doesn't "need" a SansAmp. If he has one of the bigger Crates he probably doesn't "need" another amp unless it's inadequate volume-wise for his gig (if he has one).

So far he hasn't said a thing that would truly warrant buying something. Get more details.
 
#26
Brad,

Having Jeff Berlin's Crate amps examined by a genuine specialist would certainly be interesting... Unofficial rumours (never confirmed, but never denied too) say that the Marshall amps that Jimi Hendrix used were just "facades", and that the electronics inside was by Vox. Also, Ritchie Blackmore often stated that Jim Marshall built his amps to custom specifications. So what about Jeff Berlin's Crate amps ? We don't know.

Anyway, I agree with the fact that we miss a few information from Razorbakc. Though, I do insist on the fact I never heard a really responsive Crate amp. Maybe I didn't try the right ones. Maybe the ones I tried were "tired". I don't know. That's my opinion according to what I heard. And despite of what you implied, I know what I'm doing when I plug a bass into an amp ;)

We also would appreciate Razorbakc to tell us what he means by "punch". Is it just dynamics ? Or overdrive ? Or... anything else ?

All the best,
 
#28
Originally posted by jaylanb
Brad,

Having Jeff Berlin's Crate amps examined by a genuine specialist would certainly be interesting... Unofficial rumours (never confirmed, but never denied too) say that the Marshall amps that Jimi Hendrix used were just "facades", and that the electronics inside was by Vox. Also, Ritchie Blackmore often stated that Jim Marshall built his amps to custom specifications. So what about Jeff Berlin's Crate amps ? We don't know.

I can't really say in Jeff's case. I do know that I've played a few of the JBL-equipped single 15 combos and unless they too were modified... they sounded nice.

Hey, I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy but IMO when it comes to what's more important, equipment or the player, equipment is highly overrated.

I've heard the same ruumors about a number of signature artists' gear, hey, it could be true but check this out: I've played Gary Willis' Ibanez and I still sound like me. Gary still sounded like him self.

Coincidence??
;)

Anyway, I agree with the fact that we miss a few information from Razorbakc. Though, I do insist on the fact I never heard a really responsive Crate amp. Maybe I didn't try the right ones. Maybe the ones I tried were "tired". I don't know. That's my opinion according to what I heard. And despite of what you implied, I know what I'm doing when I plug a bass into an amp ;)

Find the Crate combo I mentioned.

We also would appreciate Razorbakc to tell us what he means by "punch". Is it just dynamics ? Or overdrive ? Or... anything else ?

All the best,

That would indeed be helpful.
Click to expand...
 
#30
I gigged for YEARS with a 150w Laney combo (1 15inch speaker) and it served me faithfully (although I recently retired the poor thing after 15 years of use and abuse) and most gigs I've done recently I dont even use an amp:eek: :D just straight DI and I can say hand on my heart I've never had any problem with 'punch'.

Only recently I did a gig where I had to use the house backline (which was basically a mid range bass combo trace elliot commando (I think), now the bassist with one of the other bands arrived with an ARRAY of gizmos compression pedals, sans amp bass di the lot and spent ages setting up, he nearly broke the sound guys heart...and after all that when he actually played his sound was pure 'mud' , Myself and the other bassists did our slots just plugging straight into the combo, no fartin about...perfect sound and lots of punch.

I firmly believe a good 80% of 'punch' comes from technique, like anything if you cant get the 'sound' through say a pignose or even a practice amp theres no guarantee throwing money at a huge 'rig' is gonna do it for you, its akin to playing say a fretless...I know guys who spent FORTUNES on high end fretless basses and when they play em they might as well be playing fretted for all the sonic difference there is, conversely I heard the most gorgeous fretless playing/tone from a guy using a 300 euro 'vintage'.

heres an interesting link

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#31
Murf, playing with a light touch and turning your amp up seems to be another one of those divisive ideas amongst bassists. It's believed by some that a light touch will hinder punch, expression, dynamics, etc. These are probably the same people that think punch is defined by your toys (hey, maybe their's is;)).

It's all about control. I agree with Dann's article you posted, IME it's much more expressive and an added bonus is less fatiquing. I can play all night without hand fatigue. It just takes practice.
 
#33
I listened to the pop-up and the punch there was mostly from using a pick, and it sounds to me like an SWR amp (or an amp modeler), I could easily be wrong...lol. Certain amps do have a "signature" tone and that was one of them IMO. The tone was just lots of mids as others have said. You do not need monster rigs to get that sound but you may need to get a good preamp that has the tonal flexibility. I do not dicount inexpensive gear, especially basses. I play it and if I like it I do not care what nae it says on the front. But, with amps, pre-amps and speakers, in many cases you get what you pay for. Notice that I did not say more watts. A crap amp is a crap amp no matter how many watts it has.

jam
 

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