How to (Not) blow out a Cabinet

[Jim Carr]

Same part: replacement bulb No. 211-2.
They aren't. That was the Goliath II. The I uses some (very old, no longer made) Eden driver.

I thought that might be the case—and who knows what @A_maz has in the goliath l in question?

Here is a helpful thread: SWR Goliath II Jr Speaker Replacement Question

 

[Sparkl]

You are not dumb. You need a little more information and more experience.
You are lucky, a goliath I is a good sounding 410. It is really the cabinet that started the massive shift to 410 ported bass cabinets some time around 1980 or so. That design still works fine, but has been surpassed, IMHO.

Distortion comes from a lot of places, but the only kind that harms speakers is that caused by asking them to do what they cannot do. Sending a signal that asks them to move farther than they are designed to move will eventually burn them out or tear them up.

Heat build-up and mechanical over-excursion are both caused simply by playing (generally low frequencies) too loud.

Distortion from your pre-amp (gain), your amp (master volume), an effects pedal, etc. will NOT by themselves harm your speakers.
The problem is that all those other sources of distortion or extreme signal complexity will make it impossible to tell if your speakers are distorting.

Speakers complain before they fail. They make ugly sounds that mask the actual pitch. The intended waveform of your instrument is not correctly reproduced, and frequencies that don't belong to a given note obscure what should have been there. Sometimes it is a rattle, sometimes popping, sometimes clicking or even burps, fuzziness, or "farts."

My advice is as follows:
1) Get your goliath I fixed. It is a cool cabinet that is rare and worth keeping around in working condition.

2) Get a newer second cabinet that weighs less and can handle more power. Having the goliath as a back up or rehearsal cab would be good.

3) Experiment with your new amp head and cabinet. Get to know their limits.

4) Carefully supervise any use of your gear by others.

5) Wear hearing protection at all times in a loud music situation.

Hehe, man there must be something the market engineers are doing very well. Just about everyone on this forum only talks about weight vs watt and completely disregards the sound qualities.

To the OP: Don't really pay much attention to the modern marketing madness, there is a very good chance that Goliath I blows the lightweight sector completely, tone-wise. You don't owe yourself a lightweight cab unless you are physically required to do so. Most of the new lightweight options do not meet the tone expectations of the older cabs. What you have is simply an amp capable of driving those speakers harder than what they are intended to, so some precaution will be needed.

If I have been able to run my previously owned Hartke 4.5XL (400W RMS) through my previously owned GK RB1001-II for 10+ years without a single issue, all is good. Just listen to your equipment and whenever you see some weird farting noises from your cab or coil ringing, make sure to back down immediately. If you need more volume, search for a 2nd cab instead.

It really is that easy.

P.S.: The lightweight market is so hyped right now that all the old heavier good stuff sells for next to nothing which is a great opportunity! You will get a better and heftier sounding rig with 1/4 of money spent compared to a lightweight rig.

 

[A_maz]

Have I missed something? What are the symptoms that lead to the diagnosis that the cab is "blown"?

Could this be something as simple as an active bass overdriving the input?

Also, that cable connecting the speaker looks to me to be an instrument cable rather than a speaker cable. Best to get the correct cable.

It looks like an instrument cable but it's a speakon to quarter inch, the picture is just hiding the speakon cable behind the head.

 

[A_maz]

You absolutely do have a Goliath I (The cloth grill variant. I have the same cab, but with steel grate and "designed by David Eden" on the back jackplate) and you are correct about the power handling: 400W.

Might also add that those cabs are 30 years old at this point, and most of them have not been treated nicely in their long lives. They sure do sound nice, though, don't they?

It sounded so damn good which is why I'm really kicking myself for blowing it.

 

[Jim Carr]

Hehe, man there must be something the market engineers are doing very well. Just about everyone on this forum only talks about weight vs watt and completely disregards the sound qualities...

This is not really the case, in my experience. The 83 lbs goliath II, which I loved the tone of, BTW, could not begin to touch the performance of the cabs I use now.

The thing is that 410's beam (off axis, they sound like pooh), and often have a huge baked in low mid bump. If that is what you want, and most people are happy with that, then all is good.

If, however, you need big lows for Reggae and gospel, need to cover upright slap/click at high volumes with little or no PA support, and you want something that is easy to move without a hand truck, then you need a full range cabinet made with light materials and neo-drivers.

It's not simply marketing, and in fact the cabinets I use are not mass marketed at all, they are either DIY or built-to-order from open source plans. See here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] and here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[A_maz]

Wow - you got a great deal on that cab.

I also don't think you were a bad bass player here. Actually I'm grinning a little bit because it sounds to me like you were NOT being shy or tentative about lettin' it rip with that rig of yours. Hopefully today's amp technology can keep up with your ambitions, right?

I'm actually going to do a search later and see if there's some sort of club here for "Where were you when you smoked your first cab?" If anything, I'd say you've earned a little bada$$ bass cred.

Keep on rockin' and keep on reading (here and elsewhere). There are always new things to learn when it comes to gearing up to effectively push our sound.

I've never owned that particular cab you've got, but my first 4x10 cab was an SWR Workingman's 4x10 - more of a budget box compared with the Goliath line. Mine was rated 8 ohms and 400 watts RMS. I also have a more recent generation of the SWR Goliath Jr. 2x10 cab, which is rated 8 ohms and 350 watts RMS (I'd expect the 4x10 version of this cab to rate at 700 watts).

If that first generation of the Goliath 4x10's was indeed rated at 400 watts, you might want to scout for a later generation if you stick with that label. Aside from how you operate your head and any mechanical aspects of the drivers in different cabs, I'd bet that there are several different affordable 4x10's in the used market that are rated for more power if that's what you need.

Lol thanks man. The good thing about Friday was that even though I was apparently blowing my amp, I've never had that many people notice my playing at once. I'm in a college town where the bassists typically aren't a huge part of the show because it's a lot of power chord heavy surf rock that tends to be on the simpler side. No hate on the style tho, just an observation. But I've really been working on my bass style for the last two years and we're super influenced by vulfpeck, and I just get some very good compliments at the end of some gigs and it makes me feel like I'm doing something right(other than blowing my amp).

 

[Kro]

It's not simply marketing, and in fact the cabinets I use are not mass marketed at all, they are either DIY or build to order from open source plans. See here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] and here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Same, best sounding cabs I've ever used. Period.

 

[Ewo]

It sounded so damn good which is why I'm really kicking myself for blowing it.

Welcome to TB, OP!

If I may say, don't feel too down on yourself if you've cooked a speaker or three in the cab by running too much power into it and failing to hear the distress call of the speakers. It's pretty easy to do, especially in a mix with a lot of chainsaw guitar. Erm, how do I know..? I'm an old cat--been playing for a loooong time and never before did it--but a couple years back I toasted a driver in a good quality 1-12 box. And the power rating of the amp wasn't too much for the rating on the pair of cabs.

I'm not familiar with the Trickfish amps, but I definitely agree with the comments above that you put a good HPF in front of the amp and take care not to run too much low end boost on the amp.

 

[Jim Carr]

...tried different instrument cables, speak-on to quarter inch cables, another bass, and I plugged all of these into my practice combo amp to make sure they were fine so I figured it must be the cab. And I listened to each of the 10" speakers individually and it sounds like it's the upper left one...

If you take pictures of the drivers (still in the cab), it might reveal a thing or two. Just remove the grill cloth.
Take a few pics. Post here.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Images attached. And no, I don't really use effects too often but I would like to know about how they can overwork a speaker. More specifically delay, envelope, and octave(if there is any difference). I have noticed when I plug in my Boss DD-7 that sometimes it makes the sound more nasally but can't tell if that's just me.

Yes, that absolutely is a Goliath I, 410 cab. That cab was designed by David Nordschow (founder of Eden) and if you look at the backplate, it even has a Manufactured by Eden Electronics logo on it. You'll have to blow it up a lot to read it clearly, but it's there at the very bottom of the backplate. Eden is in block letters and Electronics is in scroll. That's the logo he used when he was designing and selling PA and FOH equipment in the early 70's. The Eden D410-T you are considering buying is also his design but was a later design than that Goliath I.

 

[Sparkl]

This is not really the case, in my experience. The 83 lbs goliath II, which I loved the tone of, BTW, could not begin to touch the performance of the cabs I use now.

The thing is that 410's beam (off axis, they sound like pooh), and often have a huge baked in low mid bump. If that is what you want, and most people are happy with that, then all is good.

If, however, you need big lows for Reggae and gospel, need to cover upright slap/click at high volumes with little or no PA support, and you want something that is easy to move without a hand truck, then you need a full range cabinet made with light materials and neo-drivers.

It's not simply marketing, and in fact the cabinets I use are not mass marketed at all, they are either DIY or built-to-order from open source plans. See here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] and here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I know, I also owned a Barefaced Big Twin 2 first hand. Sold it after 5 months of use. Just couldn't get the point of it.

Thing is, beamy 410s are actually preferrable to any sound technician out there. You are able to direct the sound away from the PA much more efficiently thus making it easier for the sound technician to do the PA sound while not getting colored with the stage sound.

What I miss with these lightweight things is soul. These cabs have basically no soul, they all look the same and most of them have difficulties with projecting the sound in a meaningful way.

About the only lightweight neo cab I have tried and liked was the vanderkley stuff and even then I would never trade my aggie or ampegs for it.

 

[bbh]

I bet you something is loose in the cabinet. Could be anything so tighten all and test your head on a known good cabinet. Then get back to us.

 

[Kro]

Thing is, beamy 410s are actually preferrable to any sound technician out there. You are able to direct the sound away from the PA much more efficiently thus making it easier for the sound technician to do the PA sound while not getting colored with the stage sound.

That's the first I've ever heard that argument. It's the high frequencies that beam, probably not the most problematic frequencies.

On the flip side, better dispersion IME frequently allows me to run lower stage volume and still hear myself on-stage clearly for a wider range of stage space.

 

[David Jayne]

I know, I also owned a Barefaced Big Twin 2 first hand. Sold it after 5 months of use. Just couldn't get the point of it.

Thing is, beamy 410s are actually preferrable to any sound technician out there. You are able to direct the sound away from the PA much more efficiently thus making it easier for the sound technician to do the PA sound while not getting colored with the stage sound.

What I miss with these lightweight things is soul. These cabs have basically no soul, they all look the same and most of them have difficulties with projecting the sound in a meaningful way.

About the only lightweight neo cab I have tried and liked was the vanderkley stuff and even then I would never trade my aggie or ampegs for it.

Maybe, but plug into my two GK neo 15's and get back to me. They'll pin your ears back. : D

 

[Sparkl]

That's the first I've ever heard that argument. It's the high frequencies that beam, probably not the most problematic frequencies.

On the flip side, better dispersion IME frequently allows me to run lower stage volume and still hear myself on-stage clearly for a wider range of stage space.

Not my experience on any PA supported stage honestly. A tilted beamed cab is what works best in my experience, remember, a cab is your personal monitor, nothing else!

As far as dispersion goes - not only are the higher frequencies beamed, lower are too up to a degree. Especially that nasty 3k+ range and sometimes to some degree the lower-mid mids, which can some how be at least slightly directed.

 

[A_maz]

Not my experience on bigger stages honestly. And Ampeg 810 fridge stack is still the king of big stage backline

That is the goal eventually. Right now I'm a broke college student.

 

[Kro]

Not my experience on any PA supported stage honestly. A tilted beamed cab is what works best in my experience, remember, a cab is your personal monitor, nothing else!

As far as dispersion goes - not only are the higher frequencies beamed, lower are too up to a degree. Especially that nasty 3k+ range and sometimes to some degree the lower-mid mids, which can some how be at least slightly directed.

In fairness to the OP, this discussion would probably be best suited to a new thread. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I am glad that you have a solution that works so well for your needs, and that you're enthusiastic about it. Everybody should feel so good about the gear they use.

 

[Jim Carr]

@A_maz — Let's debug your goliath l. I mean figure out if, in fact, a driver is toasted, and if so, which one.
Then we can brain storm the next step that suits your needs.

Question: When you play through it, exactly what happens?

 

[Rip Van Dan]

It was set on high. I kinda figured that might have been the nail in the coffin.

I think you need to read this info from your amp's maker:
How the Bullhead Works – Trickfish Amplification

Very specifically there's a couple of things you should be aware of. The High in the "High/Low" switch is for a High gain signal coming out of the bass (usually from an Active EQ bass). Low is for a "normal" gain signal coming out of a passive bass or an active EQ bass that just doesn't have a hot signal.

If you have it in the Low section and that gain clip light is coming on when you have the dial set at 9 o'clock or lower, then switch that toggle to the "High" selection. That should drop the input gain by a lot - usually 12db to 15db. Ideally this will let you get your gain up somewhere between about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock and will give you much better granularity - easier to dial it in just right.

You've using the gain adjustment all wrong. The gain signal has a clipping light. That's basically a "gain-set" light. It's OK to have that light flash on your loudest and lowest notes, you just don't want it to stay on all the time. The idea behind it is to tell you when your sending the clearest, strongest, lowest distortion signal down the line to be amplified. As you adjust your EQ, that gain signal can change.

So, you want to set up your gain first with everything set flat. Then, after you play with the EQ to get the sound you want, adjust that gain again if necessary. If it's not coming on at all, turn the gain up. If it's coming on and staying on, turn it down. If it "dances" then you're fine. Now you control the volume out of your rig by adjusting the master. That "Master" is also controlling how much power you are pushing to your cabs.

By turning your master all the way up or close to it and using your gain to control the volume, you are trying to amplify a weak signal. And, because the gain signal is weak, you end up amplifying a lot of noise with it. That may very well be what blasted your speakers if you have actually blown one or more of them. Turning the master up and down controls how much power is being sent to the cab.

If you run the master way up and then use the gain to control your volume, you are running your amp a lot hotter and putting a lot more power into the cab than you are realizing. Some old Ampeg SVT's (an all valve amp) were made to function that way, but your Bulldog was not. In that case, you may well have melted the voice coil on one or more of your speakers because although it didn't sound particularly loud, you were sending out close to max amount of power your amp can produce.

You probably didn't hear any farting sounds from the speaker because the mechanical maximum (Xmax) wasn't being exceeded. But you may very well have been sending way too many watts to it and fried a voice coil or two.

So you'll need to change the way you're using it. Read the info in that link at the top of this. He explains how to use his amp very well.

 

[A_maz]

I think you need to read this info from your amp's maker:
How the Bullhead Works – Trickfish Amplification

Very specifically there's a couple of things you should be aware of. The High in the "High/Low" switch is for a High gain signal coming out of the bass (usually from an Active EQ bass). Low is for a "normal" gain signal coming out of a passive bass or an active EQ bass that just doesn't have a hot signal.

If you have it in the Low section and that gain clip light is coming on when you have the dial set at 9 o'clock or lower, then switch that toggle to the "High" selection. That should drop the input gain by a lot - usually 12db to 15db. Ideally this will let you get your gain up somewhere between about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock and will give you much better granularity - easier to dial it in just right.

You've using the gain adjustment all wrong. The gain signal has a clipping light. That's basically a "gain-set" light. It's OK to have that light flash on your loudest and lowest notes, you just don't want it to stay on all the time. The idea behind it is to tell you when your sending the clearest, strongest, lowest distortion signal down the line to be amplified. As you adjust your EQ, that gain signal can change.

So, you want to set up your gain first with everything set flat. Then, after you play with the EQ to get the sound you want, adjust that gain again if necessary. If it's not coming on at all, turn the gain up. If it's coming on and staying on, turn it down. If it "dances" then you're fine. Now you control the volume out of your rig by adjusting the master. That "Master" is also controlling how much power you are pushing to your cabs.

By turning your master all the way up or close to it and using your gain to control the volume, you are trying to amplify a weak signal. And, because the gain signal is weak, you end up amplifying a lot of noise with it. That may very well be what blasted your speakers if you have actually blown one or more of them. Turning the master up and down controls how much power is being sent to the cab.

If you run the master way up and then use the gain to control your volume, you are running your amp a lot hotter and putting a lot more power into the cab than you are realizing. Some old Ampeg SVT's (an all valve amp) were made to function that way, but your Bulldog was not. In that case, you may well have melted the voice coil on one or more of your speakers because although it didn't sound particularly loud, you were sending out close to max amount of power your amp can produce.

You probably didn't hear any farting sounds from the speaker because the mechanical maximum (Xmax) wasn't being exceeded. But you may very well have been sending way too many watts to it and fried a voice coil or two.

So you'll need to change the way you're using it. Read the info in that link at the top of this. He explains how to use his amp very well.

Oh so High is for active basses and low is for passive basses? I just read it and it's kinda confusing but I guess that makes some sense to me.