It's important however to recognize that Coltrane, Parker and Armstrong were taking different drugs than Lesh, Garcia, and Weir et al.
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How to play like Phil Lesh?
- Thread starter Lobster11
- Start date
It's important however to recognize that Coltrane, Parker and Armstrong were taking different drugs than Lesh, Garcia, and Weir et al.
Phil probably doesn't analyze his own playing, but, plays what he feels...and is rather skilled at holding back, to create tension and the anticipation of eventual release. His phrasing is so long that it may last for an entire section (or longer) of a song before resolving. I think this is the key to his style. Finally I believe the thing that makes the GD great is the same thing that makes it seem as if they can't play sometimes, and that is that they are engaging their "soul, higher self, spirituality" in the improvisational process...which has it's own agenda rather than "impressing people," or other ego based values. Hope this post doesn't seem pompous.
I'm going to see Phil & Bobby at a club tonight...it's billed as a "public rehearsal" for Furthur festival. I only ever saw the Grateful Dead once (an uninspired 90s Soldier Field show).
I'm excited to see them work their magic up close. I've listened to Phil a LOT over the years but I'm still not sure how he does what he does.
I'm excited to see them work their magic up close. I've listened to Phil a LOT over the years but I'm still not sure how he does what he does.
Glad I found this cool older thread, and hope folks don't mind if I resurrect it.
A lot of thoughtful comments here, but I think the advice to listen to what's going on can't be stressed enough. If you took Phil's part from a song one night and inserted it into the same song on a different night, it wouldn't fit, since the context will have changed. For the OP, if you're trying to play like Phil, you had better be in the right context. I played bass in a Dead cover band for a while, and just started again after about 15 years off. My current band plays the music of the Dead, but we don't try to do it exactly like them. Our lead guitarist, for example, is very familiar with Jerry's playing, and pays homage to it, but he's also a burning jazzer (teaches at 3 universities) and has a very unique sense of harmony and substitutions. In my old band, where we pretty much played the roles of the members of the Dead, I played a lot more like Phil. In this band, that doesn't feel right, and I feel the need to groove more and to lay down stuff that's a bit more solid than Phil would do, especially when the guitar goes off into the harmonic stratosphere.
We've finally gotten around to posting audio from recent gigs - you can hear what I'm talking about here:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
A lot of thoughtful comments here, but I think the advice to listen to what's going on can't be stressed enough. If you took Phil's part from a song one night and inserted it into the same song on a different night, it wouldn't fit, since the context will have changed. For the OP, if you're trying to play like Phil, you had better be in the right context. I played bass in a Dead cover band for a while, and just started again after about 15 years off. My current band plays the music of the Dead, but we don't try to do it exactly like them. Our lead guitarist, for example, is very familiar with Jerry's playing, and pays homage to it, but he's also a burning jazzer (teaches at 3 universities) and has a very unique sense of harmony and substitutions. In my old band, where we pretty much played the roles of the members of the Dead, I played a lot more like Phil. In this band, that doesn't feel right, and I feel the need to groove more and to lay down stuff that's a bit more solid than Phil would do, especially when the guitar goes off into the harmonic stratosphere.
We've finally gotten around to posting audio from recent gigs - you can hear what I'm talking about here:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
phill focuses a lot on root/5/octave type things, he doesent target 3rds that much in jams. he also tends to play a lot of patterns focusing on b7-8, and tends to just bounce around and utilize these few ideas. (IE, if were in A, phill would likely do something like A, A, E, G, A, with whatever (usually) tastefull rhythm.) actually, now that i think of it, the subtonic-tonic interval is really common with him, like when he pounds out two powerchords in a row- approaching tonic by a whole step (same thing, b7-8)
and of course, lots of pentatonic "noodling."
and of course, lots of pentatonic "noodling."
Love Phil, but sometimes it sounds like he just doesn't know what he's doing, whether in fact he does or not. The best learning you're going to do is to sit down and learn what he played not for note. Two benefits:
Ear training/development
You will eventually put together a whole bunch of "Phil-isms" and know in a very in-depth way his approach.
Ear training/development
You will eventually put together a whole bunch of "Phil-isms" and know in a very in-depth way his approach.
Through trying to learn Phil "note-for-note" I came across my greatest discovery: the validity/use for the one finger per fret technique... So no hating here...
if nobody's mentioned it, a huge part of phil's approach is rhythmic.. he offsets the "one" more often than not... bobby does the same, and that has helped build the dead's unique architecture to a large extent.
Phil, as I understand it is a formally trained musician. Nevertheless, that doesn't say anything about how well that translated to bass, per se. But, he does succeed in being shall we say "adventureous" and "searching" to a degree, has a unique sound and/or approach which is hard to mistake, and usually plays something relatively interesting whereas I'd suspect others would play it more safe. There's a lot of accomplishment, here, I think.
Yeah, you could put somone else in that position in that band, and you'd get more (technically speaking) "right" notes, but the vibe would possibly suffer, and loose a bit of it's charm that helps make GD what it is.
Yeah, you could put somone else in that position in that band, and you'd get more (technically speaking) "right" notes, but the vibe would possibly suffer, and loose a bit of it's charm that helps make GD what it is.
Thanks a lot!
One other thing I forgot to mention relates to tone. A lot of Phil's tone comes from how he holds the pick, and the amount of muting he does or doesn't do (IMO, he varies the length of his notes more than most bassists). I can get a pretty convincing Phil tone, but it doesn't work with the band I'm playing with, even though we play Dead tunes. There isn't as much room in the upper frequencies, but there's a lot of room down below, so I use a bit more low mids and a bit less top end with this group than with my old, more "tribute" band. Again, it's all about what fits in the context of the moment.
Regarding the horn player comments, there is quite a bit of horn phrasing in Phil's playing, but the guy who always struck me as the most horn like bassist was Jaco. Very different horns, to be sure, but I could usually find it easy to hear solo horns, or often sections, playing his lines.
Mike Gordon of Phish does a cleaner, precise version of the Phil type playing...he actually pulls off all that stuff Phil tries for...it is very satisfying for me to listen to...nothing wrong with what Phil did for all those years, per se, it was just known that tight musicianship and a tidy pocket was not what the Dead were about, and the spirit of trying for things and reaching was way more important...Gordon is a great great player in that same spirit..peace
Actually, from what I understand, Jerry was more into smoking mentholated cocaine. And a little heroin to calm down here and there.
The Allmans were also about cocaine. The un-mentholated variety.
Jerry smoked horse.
And blow.
Coltrane kicked smack, but was actually taking quite a bit of acid in his last few years, from what I've read.
And blow.
Coltrane kicked smack, but was actually taking quite a bit of acid in his last few years, from what I've read.
Your narrowminded opinions won't get you very far here or in life. Good luck.
Phil lesh rules ... You can hear his influence heavily on Gordon... But the thing I love the best about lesh is his simplicity sometimes and choice of rhythms.. I been listening to him straight all day for the past couple months just because I would like to adapt some of his style in my own playing....
interesting you say that--I agree in that Gordon sounds like a tighter lesh. Not that it's a bad thing, it just is what it is. I wonder if a lot of that has to do with the musicians he stands next to--To me, the Phish guys are a lot more in control of what's going on, which Grateful Dead has more of an "airy" "loose" feel to it...I couldn't see grateful dead doing Guyute lol
For my two cents, I'd say to nail that Lesh feel, be light and airy like some other people have already said--I think he sometimes even gets a "bouncy" feel in some of the recordings I have
I've heard Phil's style described as a bit chunky snake and Jerry's leads like a bird that flies in and out of the snake. FWIW (and I'm sure I butchered that).
For me Phil's style isn't "light and airy" really. You want tight Phil check out The Eleven from Live! Dead, rock solid. Or some of the tunes from One From The Vault, he smokes the Eyes on there among others.
As far as Gordo goes his "fatter" sound/style is more a result of playing in a four piece as opposed to Phil's playing in a 6 or 7 piece band where all the players could easily take lead at different times.
