How to record a concert band

[MultiScaleMale]

I agree with just using the Zoom's internal mics. It will turn out fine. But, since this is Talkbass and we love to overkill everything (myself included), I present IsoMike.... isomike gallery

 

[ofajen]

The advantage of omni mikes is that they present the low end accurately. The disadvantage is that they present ambient noise accurately too.

I've used the little omni module made by The SoundProfessionals for my MicroTrack with great results for years. They don't make that model anymore but there are plenty of equivalent options. It keeps things simple and the result sounds totally natural and representative of the space.

Otto

 

[Space Pickle]

If you can use six mic inputs I would grab a figure 8 mic to pair with one of the 57s in a mid-side arrangement. I would then add two more 57s on each side at increasingly steep angles as you move away from center. You'll likely only use the mid-side pair, but having the safety net of the others would be good for piece of mind.

If you don't want to buy another mic just spread the 4-6 mics out across the band. Make sure and have one mic dead center (not the stereo XY mic built into the unit).

Try to keep the distances from each mic capsule to the closest instruments as uniform as possible.

The H6 came with a small mid-side attachment I can use in place of the XY pair. I don't think I will be able to get my hands on a figure 8 (the Coles figure 8 that I am familiar with is like $1500). Would you recommend the zoom mid-side in place of the XY?

Start simple with what's built in to the unit at the director's position and listen to what you get. Since you're in the band room and not in front of an audience, I probably wouldn't put it too far into he room unless you're not getting a cohesive blend of the band that close. It may be fine or you may need to experiment with placement. Frankly, if I found that I wanted to start multi-tracking things I'd get something hardware or software based that was more conducive to what I was trying to accomplish.

On this topic, I have inherited an old Yamaha O1V (12 channel mixer) and Tascam DA-38 (8-track DAT machine). I haven't even figured out how it all works yet, but assuming I do would this be a good option for a jazz big band? I could close-mic everything and have enough channels for at least 4 mics on the drum kit if I could find a second O1V to link up with. On the other hand, this plan might also be completely insane.

Thanks for all the info, everyone. At the very least, you have disabused me of the notion that I can just randomly put up 6 SM57's and achieve a good sound. I feel like it's going to come down to a decision between the XY and the mid-side capsule for the concert band, and the same situation & DI bass for the jazz.

 

[Wasnex]

The H6 came with a small mid-side attachment I can use in place of the XY pair. I don't think I will be able to get my hands on a figure 8 (the Coles figure 8 that I am familiar with is like $1500). Would you recommend the zoom mid-side in place of the XY?

I recommend you try both. It is likely that mic placement, ensemble size, and the acoustic environment will determine which gives better results.

On this topic, I have inherited an old Yamaha O1V (12 channel mixer) and Tascam DA-38 (8-track DAT machine). I haven't even figured out how it all works yet, but assuming I do would this be a good option for a jazz big band? I could close-mic everything and have enough channels for at least 4 mics on the drum kit if I could find a second O1V to link up with. On the other hand, this plan might also be completely insane.

The O1V is actually pretty easy to use once you get the hang of it. Close micing is going to get expensive in a hurry and best results are achieved if you have some sort of DAW to mix down to stereo. Unfortunately with just 8 channels you are not going to have as much control as you need; you will basically have to figure out how you will distribute the sections across the 8 channels. I would probably send rhythm section to 1,2, sax to 3,4, trombone to 5,6, and trumpet to 7,8. If you have vocals you might consider putting trumpet and trombone on 5,6 and using 7,8 for bass and vocals.

Something to keep in mind with close micing, is levels change dramatically as players shift positions and change their dynamics. Young players are probably not going to know how to properly compensate for this. You might try an intermediate distance micing approach in which you place three mics across the sax section just below chest level aimed down at the players. For solos they can stand up and this will will automatically give them a boost in the mix. Section leads horn should be lined up on the center mic and the other two mics should be evenly spaced between the outside player's horns. You may find you need a fourth mic centered on the bari. Saxes are far less directional than brass instruments, so you want the sax mics fairly close...approximately even with the back of their stands or perhaps even closer.

You can use a similar technique (2 or 3 mics per section) for the trumpets and trombone, but you want to place the mics as far from the players as possible without getting into the section in front of them. You may also like a coincident or near coincident pair for these two sections. For best results, the trombones and trumpets should be on tiered risers. This will reduce bleed into the other section mics.

An advantage of putting some distance between the instruments and the horns is it typically sounds a bit more natural and it can be easier to get the section to blend with less fiddling.

IMHO at this point you would probably be better off using a stereo pair to capture the band with dedicated solo and vocal mics. Or you can experiment with setting the horns around a stereo mic in an arc and use close mic techniques on the rhythm section. If you ever get a pair of mics that can be set to figure 8, you could even try Blumlein and set the horns in a circle around the mic...very cool.

 

[Space Pickle]

I should have specified, it's the old O1V, not the newer one with USB. So I think the only way to go into a computer DAW is by taking the stereo out from the console into two channels (i.e. no way to get real software DAW multitracking). Hence, the tape machine. However if I can source another one I believe they can be linked together to function as one 16 channel console. However, this may be kind of nuts to do. Thanks for the information, regardless.

 

[trevcda]

On this topic, I have inherited an old Yamaha O1V (12 channel mixer) and Tascam DA-38 (8-track DAT machine). I haven't even figured out how it all works yet, but assuming I do would this be a good option for a jazz big band? I could close-mic everything and have enough channels for at least 4 mics on the drum kit if I could find a second O1V to link up with. On the other hand, this plan might also be completely insane.

I have a DA-38 that I'll patch into the sub groups on a larger board that I have on occasion. I put an ART MDM-8L 8 channel limiter used as a peak stop limiter between the two so I don't have to watch my levels going into the machine as I'm usually performing FOH duties at the same time. It gives me really usable tracks to mix down later, but as with all live recordings, I have to mic everything if I plan on hearing it later. So yes, you could go the multi-track route and do some creative mixing later, but you run the risk of losing the organic sound of the ensemble, which is what I believe you are really trying to capture... Read on-

IMHO at this point you would probably be better off using a stereo pair to capture the band ...

This is really what I was driving at. Let the band mix itself. Like any good ensemble, jazz or orchestral, they should be playing as a cohesive unit, not with the "fix it in mix" mentality that is so prevalent these days. The simple X-Y mics built into the unit may be exactly what you need. Try it. Experiment with placement. Let the group make room for the solos, rather than figuring out a way to turn up the solo. You know, like a band!

 

[Wasnex]

I should have specified, it's the old O1V, not the newer one with USB. So I think the only way to go into a computer DAW is by taking the stereo out from the console into two channels (i.e. no way to get real software DAW multitracking). Hence, the tape machine. However if I can source another one I believe they can be linked together to function as one 16 channel console. However, this may be kind of nuts to do. Thanks for the information, regardless.

I believe a pair of the original 01V can be linked for a total of 24 mic inputs. The also have two stereo outs and four omni outs. The omni outs are balanced TRS. You could easily use an 01V to create six stereo mixes for the Tascam. I have never linked O1Vs so I do not know off the top of my head if you can take advantage of the extra outputs on the second board. Probably no need to link them if you are not going to use automation, so one way or the other you could easily create 8 stereo mixes with a pair of 01Vs.

Rather than a DAW you could use an 01V to mix the 8 channels on the Tascam back to the Zoom.

Like you said, "kind of nuts."

 

[silky smoove]

The H6 came with a small mid-side attachment I can use in place of the XY pair. I don't think I will be able to get my hands on a figure 8 (the Coles figure 8 that I am familiar with is like $1500). Would you recommend the zoom mid-side in place of the XY?

No need to buy a $1,500 mic for this. Even a sub-$100 figure 8 mic (literally any ribbon mic) will do just fine. I much prefer mid-side to an XY or ORTF arrangement, and WAY WAY WAY more than a spaced pair.