+1 on crab mentality..
I'm on the same boat.. Though I think I don't have the talent. I'm working hard to be great..
"Rome was not built in a day"
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How to tell my parents?
- Thread starter SMILEYSIXX
- Start date
+1 on crab mentality..
I'm on the same boat.. Though I think I don't have the talent. I'm working hard to be great..
"Rome was not built in a day"
My two cents - I went to the University of Florida years ago, and even back then they had a great music school program. Plus you'd have the rest of the schools there to pick from for classes outside of music. There are classes you can take / pathways to minors in that can help you make it, one way or another, once you get out of school. Some business courses, for example, if you think you might eventually like to manage your band. Or be better able to keep whichever manager you hire on honest. Bookkeeping - especially what I call 'forensic bookkeeping' where you learn to spot when someone is trying to cook the books - you can either keep your own books, or be able to make sure the bookkeeper you hire is straight. Perhaps electronics, if you're interested in eventually building your own amps & other gear. (A class or two in woodworking might be helpful, too.) Take a few classes in entertainment law - help make sure you don't get screwed if your band wants to sign with a recording company, or just make sure there aren't any unexpected clauses in any contract you're signing.
And take a few classes in stuff you are only mildly interested in (they used to be called 'elective' classes); you may find something you love as much as music. Look at Brian May of Queen; he had a Masters in Astrophysics and recently (2007 I think?) completed his PhD. For that matter, John Deacon (also of Queen) has the equivilent of a Masters in - I think it's electronics? Something to do with working with sound electronically?
Think of all the bands who got royally messed over by managers, bookkeepers, recording companies - if some of their members had known a bit about how things work legally in the system, they might have avoided some of the pitfalls they ended up in.
A heck of a lot of bass players end up doing stuff like becoming sound / recording engineers, too. Something about the fact we're one of the people who really HAVE to learn to listen to the band as a whole...
Don't forget, you can always decide to run a double major and get degrees in two fields; works best of course if they are somewhat related but even that isn't necessary. And if you do decided to go into music, it wouldn't hurt to take a few classes in HOW to teach; one of the things I've noticed is that sometimes really great players make rotten teachers because they've never learned to teach others - there are tricks to teaching that will make getting your point / instruction across a bit easier, and help the students to learn what you're teaching them faster/better.
And has been said, there is always the option of going into a trade for a part-time job; get apprenticed to a plumber, an electrician, a carpenter, an auto mechanic. They all make pretty decent money and are almost always in demand. When the toilet in your house breaks, when the electricity keeps cutting out because the circuit breaker is getting old, when you have to replace a doorjam because the bugs go to the old one - no matter how bad the economy is, that toilet has to get fixed! Plus, if you're in those fields you can generally set your own hours to a large extent; "Nope, I can't be on call Thursday night, I have something else I have to do; I'll take Wednesday night instead..."
And you can always go back to college later if you decided down the line that you want to get a degree in a particular field. Just make sure you put aside money every paycheck in a savings account if you end up doing that...
There are also a lot of colleges now offering courses online. I haven't personally taken any of them. How good they are depend on the college offering them. Some give you definate deadlines, others let you take exams, turn in papers etc. on your own schedule. Check several out if that's the course you want, and see which will work best for you.
Hope you can work something out that will work for you!
And take a few classes in stuff you are only mildly interested in (they used to be called 'elective' classes); you may find something you love as much as music. Look at Brian May of Queen; he had a Masters in Astrophysics and recently (2007 I think?) completed his PhD. For that matter, John Deacon (also of Queen) has the equivilent of a Masters in - I think it's electronics? Something to do with working with sound electronically?
Think of all the bands who got royally messed over by managers, bookkeepers, recording companies - if some of their members had known a bit about how things work legally in the system, they might have avoided some of the pitfalls they ended up in.
A heck of a lot of bass players end up doing stuff like becoming sound / recording engineers, too. Something about the fact we're one of the people who really HAVE to learn to listen to the band as a whole...
Don't forget, you can always decide to run a double major and get degrees in two fields; works best of course if they are somewhat related but even that isn't necessary. And if you do decided to go into music, it wouldn't hurt to take a few classes in HOW to teach; one of the things I've noticed is that sometimes really great players make rotten teachers because they've never learned to teach others - there are tricks to teaching that will make getting your point / instruction across a bit easier, and help the students to learn what you're teaching them faster/better.
And has been said, there is always the option of going into a trade for a part-time job; get apprenticed to a plumber, an electrician, a carpenter, an auto mechanic. They all make pretty decent money and are almost always in demand. When the toilet in your house breaks, when the electricity keeps cutting out because the circuit breaker is getting old, when you have to replace a doorjam because the bugs go to the old one - no matter how bad the economy is, that toilet has to get fixed! Plus, if you're in those fields you can generally set your own hours to a large extent; "Nope, I can't be on call Thursday night, I have something else I have to do; I'll take Wednesday night instead..."
And you can always go back to college later if you decided down the line that you want to get a degree in a particular field. Just make sure you put aside money every paycheck in a savings account if you end up doing that...
There are also a lot of colleges now offering courses online. I haven't personally taken any of them. How good they are depend on the college offering them. Some give you definate deadlines, others let you take exams, turn in papers etc. on your own schedule. Check several out if that's the course you want, and see which will work best for you.
Hope you can work something out that will work for you!
- Apr 1, 2000
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No offense, but I *was* a 16 year old who had clear choices in front of me. I could have stayed with my rock band from HS and tried to "make it", but I didn't. I got together a skillset (see Roy's posts), and found someone to pay me to do it (in my case, the federal government). To say I "made it" is a bit of a stretch, but I have made a living at it for some time now.
And guess what? If you have that skillset, (even if you're just on your way to getting that skillset), the jobs are open to you, too.
To use your analogy, if this were a thread about acting, I'd be the guy saying "You don't have to be an Oscar-winning film star to make a living as an actor."
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I didn't win the lottery. I earned a job (open to you, too) based on a skillset. I'm atypical because I redefined the goal. I didn't set out to be a "rock star" or to even be "famous". I set out to make a living.
What year was it when you were 16? I'm pretty sure 2010 won't be your answer.
If this was 1950, I'd be advising my kids to become schoolteachers. In 2010, that would be horrible advice given how poorly that job pays compared to the cost of the education required to really succeed at it. If this was 1970, I'd be advising my kids to study science and math. In 2010, science and math are pretty bleak fields for most specialties (in the United States).
Yet all of those professions are extreme solid and profitable for the people *who are already there*. If you become well established as a teacher in the 80s, that profession is rosy goodness for you. If you have been working in biology since the 70s, you probably have a pretty solid career. However, anyone trying to get their foot in the door right now is going to have to deal with the challenges of TODAY, not the challenges of the 80s. They need to deal with the college costs, job market, cost of living, and economy of TODAY, not of the 70s.
Time change. Things change. We live in the era of the internet. We live in the era of cheap sound producing electronics. There are significantly MORE musicians and significantly LESS jobs for musicians than there were before. College costs have risen at DOUBLE the rate of inflation.
Nobody is telling him "Put down the bass and do something REAL with your life!" Everyone is telling him "Have a backup plan. Build a music career out of another career if you can but don't go in without financial stability." That's common sense and reason. Putting all your eggs in one basket is not sound career advice, no matter WHAT field you are going into, let alone when one of those fields is a completely unstable, constantly shifting, and largely shrinking one like music.
I work in video games, which is actually a growing field, and I have a background in history and political science which I could very easily move into if I have to. For me to tell every kid that they can work in game design if they want to and if they work hard enough is dangerous and ridiculous advice. There aren't a lot of jobs in game design, despite that the field is growing, and anyone who shoots for it without a backup plan is asking for complete disaster. There are a MILLION kids who would love to design games, and the vast majority of designers I know NEVER WANTED TO DESIGN GAMES! They fell into the career somewhere along the way. I know level designers with degrees in architecture. There is only one commonality: These are adaptable people with diverse skillsets.
Everyone who works hard doesn't make it. That's reality. That's the world we actually live in. The people who make it are mostly people who are ADAPTABLE; People who have multiple skillsets and can shift with whatever cards life deals them. Fifty years ago you could count on getting one job with one company and doing that your whole life. That world is gone, way gone, for the vast majority of people. The modern economy rewards adaptability, not specialty. It rewards planning, including disaster planning, not complacency.
I don't want to slight your career in any way. It is very clear that you worked very hard for what you have, but it is simply unrealistic to act as though your story is proof that anyone can make it. Not every industry has a government dramatically increasing it's budget every year no matter what the results are like the military does. Virtually no industry offers the stability the military does, and you know just as well as I do that getting the job you WANT within the military is a complicated affair within itself. You have to accept that YOU are a special case in a very special situation who built his career in a different time. You are not every 16 year old in 2010 working hard on music. You are Pacman who is in his 40s and built a good life for himself
And I'm happy for you. It still doesn't mean that everyone can do what you did. There is luck involved in every successful career path, but music demands a bit more than most.
That was a good read but pretty much most of what you've said is pretty irrelevant to what Pacman was trying to say.. Pacman was just trying share his story about his career in music and not to debate about something..
A career in music doesn't necessarily mean making it big as a touring performer/'rock star'. There are plenty of other ways to make a living in music. A degree from a well-respected school like Berklee could help you get one of those gigs. Look into what other ways there are to make a living with a music degree - teaching, session playing, etc.
The other suggestions about combining a major music with some other field like marketing or electronics are right on the money. Showing your parents that you've done that research will show them that you'r serious about music as a career, not just dreaming of being a rack star. In virtually any field, having a degree gives you a leg up on the rest of the field when you're job hunting.
That said, I think a lot of the conservatory-type programs aren't really well suited for batchelor degrees becaue they so focus on whatever the discipline is that's being studied, the student misses out on a lot of what they would otherwise be exposed to in a liberal arts program.
My daughter got interested in stage lighting in high school. So much so that she wanted to make a career of it. She applied to and was accepted to the lighting design program at North Carolina School of the Arts. A very exclusive program, she was 1 of only 11 freshmen in the lighting program. She was totally immersed from the 1st day in all things theater- sets, costumes, make-up, theater history, the works.
Unfortunately she wasn't exposed to much in the way of math, science, social studies, literature, or history unless it pertained to theater and after 2 years in the program she got so burned out that she quit, only to find out that NONE of her credits would transfer to another school because she didn't have 'math 101' or 'english 101' or any other courses that could easily be recognized by admissions departments at other schools. She had to submit the course curriculums (curriculae?) for evaluation to determine what (if any) courses would be recognized. The only way any of her credits would transfer is if she went to a theater program at another school.
So consider pursung a music major with some other useful minor at a liberal arts college. You could always go to Berklee for your master's.
The other suggestions about combining a major music with some other field like marketing or electronics are right on the money. Showing your parents that you've done that research will show them that you'r serious about music as a career, not just dreaming of being a rack star. In virtually any field, having a degree gives you a leg up on the rest of the field when you're job hunting.
That said, I think a lot of the conservatory-type programs aren't really well suited for batchelor degrees becaue they so focus on whatever the discipline is that's being studied, the student misses out on a lot of what they would otherwise be exposed to in a liberal arts program.
My daughter got interested in stage lighting in high school. So much so that she wanted to make a career of it. She applied to and was accepted to the lighting design program at North Carolina School of the Arts. A very exclusive program, she was 1 of only 11 freshmen in the lighting program. She was totally immersed from the 1st day in all things theater- sets, costumes, make-up, theater history, the works.
Unfortunately she wasn't exposed to much in the way of math, science, social studies, literature, or history unless it pertained to theater and after 2 years in the program she got so burned out that she quit, only to find out that NONE of her credits would transfer to another school because she didn't have 'math 101' or 'english 101' or any other courses that could easily be recognized by admissions departments at other schools. She had to submit the course curriculums (curriculae?) for evaluation to determine what (if any) courses would be recognized. The only way any of her credits would transfer is if she went to a theater program at another school.
So consider pursung a music major with some other useful minor at a liberal arts college. You could always go to Berklee for your master's.
I don't think you are reading the same posts I am.
He is clearly advocating the notion that hard work will always pay off. I simply don't think that's reality. In reality, there are always circumstances beyond your control and not planning for them is a very dangerous way to live your life in today's world.
I advocate living in the world that exists, not a feel good world based on best-case scenarios. I give this advice as someone who watches people scratch and claw to do what I do with, frankly, ten times the drive I had to do this. They push and push and work so god damn hard it's ridiculous. I never worked half as hard... yet I have the job they want... and I'm good at it. If hard work always paid off, I'd be unemployed and some of these kids would have my job.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
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History and political science are horribly overcrowded fields, too. If you were in Academia you might have to have several Adjunct Positions (I call it "the McDonalds of Higher Education") to survive and you'd probably have to have your PhD to even get those part-time jobs. Video games may not be the growth industry in 10 years-10 years ago we might have been debating the relative merits of the burgeoning DVD rental business and Hollywood Video or Tower Records. A killer Iphone App that fascinates the public and starts a new media trend could put the gaming industry on it's knees just like streaming video and cable on demand are killing the video store.
Somehow I've managed to work for over 37 years in Music by working to be the best player I can, getting a Master of Music degree for teaching (boy did that come in handy!), and staying adaptable to styles. The 14 year old boy who played an EBO copy with flatwound strings and dreamed of being Jack Bruce and Jack Cassidy is not the 54 year old man who did one Jazz gig on upright and another on 6 string fretted/fretless today. You don't stand still-you keep your skill set sharp, adapt to changing styles and trends, and become very, very versatile.
It's said that most people will work in 5 different career fields in their lifetime today. If I count tours, TV gigs, and teaching positions I've had 18 different jobs in the 31 years I've worked in Nashville.
Someone posted on here about whether we would be advising the OP to "go for it" as an Actor. If that's your true passion, there is no shame in teaching Drama, working in regional Theater, being an Arts Administrator for a Local or State Arts commission, or any of the other jobs that aren't being Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. If that's your true passion and you're smart about it you'll find a way.
FWIW, I make considerably more money these days than when I was in a Rock Band with the Big Record Deal on the Big Record Label in the '80s.
You said an interesting thing when you said of your peers, "These are adaptable people with diverse skillsets." Those are the type of job skills I had in mind when I posted my 6 questions about being a working bassist. All the bassists young and old that I know who make a nice living playing (and teaching) fit that description. I think if you looked at the top bassist in your area right now (you know, the player who gets every gig)you'd find he or she had that quality.
I have heard great things about Berklee and it's getting fair bit of respect here too, but I found rather interesting what Joe Satriani had to say about it:
"...it was like Animal House...When I got there I saw people smoking pot and setting fires in the alley. There was complete cacophony in the hallways, there was just no place for a composer to think straight because there was noise everywhere. Most of the students were kids who looked like they couldn't get into any other school."
From: Joe Satriani - Seeking the Holy Grail (5 of 11)
I have been wondering for quite some time as to what spawned his comments. Was it that the place was actually that bad, back in the day? (around '74)
"...it was like Animal House...When I got there I saw people smoking pot and setting fires in the alley. There was complete cacophony in the hallways, there was just no place for a composer to think straight because there was noise everywhere. Most of the students were kids who looked like they couldn't get into any other school."
From: Joe Satriani - Seeking the Holy Grail (5 of 11)
I have been wondering for quite some time as to what spawned his comments. Was it that the place was actually that bad, back in the day? (around '74)
I'm not being an apologist for Berklee or anything....but you have to realize that Berklee, and the physical part of Boston it inhabits, have changed a lot since Satriani was there. The school is a LOT bigger...it's bought a lot of the 'rough' neighborhood it was in, and a there are a lot more students there now than just the jazzbo performance majors that largely inhabited the place through the 80s.....
I didn't live in the dorms when I attended, but I lived a block away when I first came to Boston. I"m sure there's havoc and mayhem around ANY college community....it's part of the culture. But there's a lot of playing that goes on at Berklee during and after hours. Not as much going on in town as the good old days, but a lot of playing can be done by someone who's properly skilled....
bigtiny
- Apr 1, 2000
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Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.
I didn't 'luck' into this gig. I was qualified, and I accepted it. It's really, REALLY simple.
Hi, I am 20 and when i was your age ( not long ago, I aint that old ha) i wanted to be a musician. Reality is its hard to make a great living doing that. Look into college , get a 4 year degree in something and when your a ripe old 22 year old take your new degree , get a great job making 40,000$ or so per year and move to a big city and push a career in music. If it never happens you have your other degree to fall back on.
This is exactly what i am doing. When I was your age I wanted to get on a train at 18 for LA but I got a little more realistic. You sound like a smart kid, talk to your high school , they usually pay for community college credits while your in high school if you want to take classes. You can have a 2 year college degree by the time you graduate if you bust ass. I wish i did this so bad, look into it.
Good Luck!
This is exactly what i am doing. When I was your age I wanted to get on a train at 18 for LA but I got a little more realistic. You sound like a smart kid, talk to your high school , they usually pay for community college credits while your in high school if you want to take classes. You can have a 2 year college degree by the time you graduate if you bust ass. I wish i did this so bad, look into it.
Good Luck!
All I can say is ignore them. My parents never supported me on anything in my life. Hell I've wanted to play bass since I was like 12-13 and didn't get my first bass until I was 21 and still was restricted because of "noise pollution" and when I went into college my parents (dad mostly) did everything to talk me out of it. If you're dad doesn't want to pay for you to go to music school then do it on your own. Most colleges have a work program then there's grants, student loans, scholorships, etc. etc. You don't need your parents to pay your way through college.
I have one question: Did the Beatles go to their mums and dads and ask them if they thought it was okay to rock the world with their music?
I have one question: Did the Beatles go to their mums and dads and ask them if they thought it was okay to rock the world with their music?
No, but they didn't spend 4 years of the average man's salary in music school either. He needs to define what he wants to do with his music career and then decide whether or not Berkley will fit into it. If he wants to be the next McCartney, no need for school. If he wants to be the next Michael Camen, Berklee could prove to be important.
Another way to look at it is this; As much as we like to believe our parents lives revolve around us the fact is that they too have lives. They spend the bulk of their best adult years - the years marked by getting solid jobs that provide them with a home and the ability to raise a family and even provide their kids with things like basses, amps, and schooling - serving their kids' needs. Many/most of the hardest decisions they have to make for their kids turn out to also the ones that kids are not thrilled about. Those decisions aren't ones they're making because they want to make their kids' lives difficult - usually quite the opposite - and it brings them little joy to bring their kids little joy.
Fast forward to 18 years after the glorious birth of their first and you have two grown up human beings who are both thrilled that they have such a fantastic kid AND thrilled that in a few short years they are going to get their lives back. Sorry kids, but yes, mom and dad are people too and at some point they'd LOVE to be able to move through their lives relatively free (no pun intended) of concern for whether their kids have shoes, food, health insurance and so on. In other words, they look forward to the day their kids become independent and capable of making their own way in life so that they too can give up a good 18/22 years doing the same thing raising their grandchildren.
One key aspect to that story is that the kids don't take the end-game and flush it down the toilet resulting in an extended adolescence (adult-child living in basement at age 30). So while it may seem that mom and dad are against you and your dreams, please try to remember that they've invested quite a lot to provide you the ability to dream. Reality is not a dream and rarely lives up to the glory that most dreams offer and parents know this all too well. Because of this, they try very hard to give their kids the most valuable gift of all - the benefit of their experience - to help ensure all that time they invested in you doesn't get squandered.
Remember - had they not invested in you, they could have probably enjoyed all that dough and time they shelled out clothing, schooling and feeding you on themselves. Instead they sacrificed what are probably the VERY best years for their young adult lives serving you and your needs. It may not feel that way to you, but it's a plain and simple fact. We can't expect kids to fully understand that until they have their own kids - but when they do have their own kids, they'll know this all too well.
Food for thought the next time you convince yourself that mom and dad simply don't want you to live your dream.
Fast forward to 18 years after the glorious birth of their first and you have two grown up human beings who are both thrilled that they have such a fantastic kid AND thrilled that in a few short years they are going to get their lives back. Sorry kids, but yes, mom and dad are people too and at some point they'd LOVE to be able to move through their lives relatively free (no pun intended) of concern for whether their kids have shoes, food, health insurance and so on. In other words, they look forward to the day their kids become independent and capable of making their own way in life so that they too can give up a good 18/22 years doing the same thing raising their grandchildren.
One key aspect to that story is that the kids don't take the end-game and flush it down the toilet resulting in an extended adolescence (adult-child living in basement at age 30). So while it may seem that mom and dad are against you and your dreams, please try to remember that they've invested quite a lot to provide you the ability to dream. Reality is not a dream and rarely lives up to the glory that most dreams offer and parents know this all too well. Because of this, they try very hard to give their kids the most valuable gift of all - the benefit of their experience - to help ensure all that time they invested in you doesn't get squandered.
Remember - had they not invested in you, they could have probably enjoyed all that dough and time they shelled out clothing, schooling and feeding you on themselves. Instead they sacrificed what are probably the VERY best years for their young adult lives serving you and your needs. It may not feel that way to you, but it's a plain and simple fact. We can't expect kids to fully understand that until they have their own kids - but when they do have their own kids, they'll know this all too well.
Food for thought the next time you convince yourself that mom and dad simply don't want you to live your dream.
I know this has been said before but I'll say it again anyways. Take it from someone who is in college right now (and at a university whose budget is being cut every other day it seems, but that's another story). The college of music where I go to school is extremely difficult to get into. The music majors are constantly in practice rooms. And this is at a school where music isn't really a huge deal (like it is at Berkeley). Not saying don't go for it, I'm in a struggling band myself and wouldn't have it any other way. But I am studying for a degree in journalism and plan on finishing school (as does everyone in the band) before possibly scoping out any potential music careers. If you really really want to get a degree in music, then (like several have suggested) I recommend a double major or at least a minor in something other than music. Again most of this has been said already, just thought it would be good to hear from someone in college right now.
