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How to tell my parents?
- Thread starter SMILEYSIXX
- Start date
And I apologize for that typo in my last message I typed it correctly but my iPhone decided it liked that spelling better haha. But the point I was making remains the same
I'm surprised nobody has said it...
Nobody goes to Berklee to get a degree to get credibility as a musician. Most of the guys who end up successful musicians come to Berklee as a really good player, stay for a bit, get connections, get picked up, and go. Most of the guys who get degrees aren't the ones who end up as full time musicians. They may end up in the music industry somewhere, but probably not as a full time working musician. If you want to make the best of the experience, go there as a really, really good, heavily practiced, seasoned player, learn as much as you can, and make connections. Don't go there expecting to get put together and hope to come out with marketable skills, because that's what happens with the majority. A degree from Berklee really doesn't mean much these days (especially when they're accepting people with 6 months experience on an instrument, like they have been for years now), so getting a degree isn't going to make you a marketable musician.
You go there for the connections, so you better have all your skill sets already in place. You'll learn a lot and change some things and improve while you are there, but if you want to make anything of it longterm you better be pretty put together before you show up at the door.
Nobody goes to Berklee to get a degree to get credibility as a musician. Most of the guys who end up successful musicians come to Berklee as a really good player, stay for a bit, get connections, get picked up, and go. Most of the guys who get degrees aren't the ones who end up as full time musicians. They may end up in the music industry somewhere, but probably not as a full time working musician. If you want to make the best of the experience, go there as a really, really good, heavily practiced, seasoned player, learn as much as you can, and make connections. Don't go there expecting to get put together and hope to come out with marketable skills, because that's what happens with the majority. A degree from Berklee really doesn't mean much these days (especially when they're accepting people with 6 months experience on an instrument, like they have been for years now), so getting a degree isn't going to make you a marketable musician.
You go there for the connections, so you better have all your skill sets already in place. You'll learn a lot and change some things and improve while you are there, but if you want to make anything of it longterm you better be pretty put together before you show up at the door.
I was sort of trying to say it =
It occurred to me yesterday that I hadn't mentioned the fact that statistically (at least among performance majors) very few people 'finish' Berklee. As this poster says, a lot of the serious players come to Berklee already in pretty good shape, make connections and leave.
The other thing I wanted to mention about Berklee, and this isn't a criticism, it's just the reality: You'll see a lot of big name players on the faculty there....don't think that you're just gonna go to Berklee and study with these people. Everything you do as a performer is based on ratings from auditions. You take an ensemble audition when you get there and are assigned ratings. This numeric rating determines which ensembles you are eligible for (they are also rated)...it's actually a good system, as it tries to get players of at least near skill levels playing together and playing the right material. These ratings, your class position (freshman, sophomore, etc.) and your reputation will determine whether you can get close to someone like, oh Joanne Brackeen or another high level performer/instructor. They can only teach so many students (and they are often away for periods of time performing).
I'm not saying any of this is bad or any different than any other school, I'm just warning you not to think you're going to show up and Berklee, practice hard for a semester and end up studying with Eddie Gomez or whatever other big name guys are there.
bigtiny
I have enough education and experience to be able to hop right back into History and Poli Sci whenever I choose. I know the people I need to to basically get a teaching assistantship that would carry me for four years whenever I want it. Don't underestimate my planning. I owe zero dollars to anyone and almost never have. I bought nearly every possession I have outright, including my cars. I've done this on a meager salary because I'm *always* at least a few years ahead of myself, and it's not like I came from a rich family; I was raised in a run down trailer. If anyone understands the value of hard work and where it gets you, it's me... and that's why I can't stand to see people pretending that the job market is a perfect system where anyone who works hard makes it. They don't, and that fact should be bolded when we are talking about shrinking, volatile fields like music.
If you think an iPhone app is going to bring the gaming industry to it's knees... wow... just wow... I'm sorry but there aren't words for that level of misunderstanding. First of all, the biggest sector in iPhone apps IS GAMES and that's one of the many reasons the industry is growing. Second of all, gaming is around for the long haul because it's a completely *adaptable* industry. It doesn't matter whether people want to play on iPhones or consoles or computers. The same people can switch what format they are making games for in a week.
The studio I work at has one of the largest audio departments of any medium sized studio in the industry. It's around twenty people. Even considering this, we get DRAMATICALLY more applications/resumes for that department than any other. We get more for audio than for engineering and even QA combined. We get less applications for the graphics department and that field is considered horrifically bloated. These people are talented and have degrees from fancy institutions. They are not slackers. They are very talented musicians... but we already have everything we need because it's a hideously bloated field.
Different jobs in music are in one field. That's not true job market adaptability. Is my stepdad adaptable because he can fix roofs and fix hardwood floors? No. When a car accident messed his back up, he was out ALL of the jobs he was trained for. When there was a lull in the construction/carpentry industries, he couldn't find work, because it was ONE field.
Look, tell me what is so terrible about telling this kid to have a backup plan and get specialized in a more practical field alongside doing music? Is that really such a horrible thing? Do you take it as some kind of bizarre insult to your field or something when someone says that you need a backup plan going into music? Will it really DESTROY his opportunity to do music if he double majors with something else? No, but it will destroy his opportunity to get a better job if music doesn't work out if he follows the "tell your parents and their money to piss off" advice.
You guys just fail to realize that a lot of people study music and then realize they *aren't happy* being session musicians and playing paid gigs. Once it's a job, it's not what they thought it would be. Yet here we are with people telling a 16 year old kid that he should FORSAKE a free education from his parents to go into that field.
Do you know how much college costs these days? He would have to go into tens of thousands of dollars of DEBT if his parents don't help him. You want this kid to shackle himself with debt before he ever even gets into the real world for a career in a field that is COMPLETELY unstable and INARGUABLY shrinking? Are you REALLY that confident that everyone who works hard makes it? Get real. This is the REAL WORLD and we have to live in 2010 not 1980.
This. And to add: why not wait another 10-15 years BEFORE going there? Get your life on track and get some schooling in something else you enjoy, then take some time for school later in life. Most people change careers several times over the course of their lives. What you want now probably won't be what you want in 2-3 years.
I was all set to go to Berklee for drums. Then I stepped back, did some thinking, and decided that what mattered most to me in life was having a stable job and a family. A career as a musician certainly doesn't provide a stable income to raise a family.
Roy Vogt
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Several have us have stated this in different ways. This actually kind of makes a good case for Grad School at Berklee since hopefully the OP would be done with 6 years of preparation if he starts today with a really good teacher and really works in his 4 year program at Florida State, FSU or FAU. He could then hopefully get a scholarship/TA to Berklee and work his connections.
I just had an interesting conversation with Marcus Finnie (that's the drummer I was talking about in an earlier post who attended Middle Tennessee State University in Jazz Studies, not Memphis State). He said that Larry Carlton called him to do a one-off gig because he had heard about him and his playing from some fellow musicians. At the time Marcus had just had a surgery and couldn't play the gig. Larry said "That's fine-I'll call again." He did several tours with Larry as well as Take 6 and is going to Japan with Kirk Whalum later this Summer.
The point of all of this has to do with "making it" and "big breaks". If you work on your skills, become a great player, relocate to an area with a thriving Music scene (Nashville, LA, New York, even Berklee) with a strategy to keep things together financially and begin to play with as many people as possible word will get around. People will find out. If you're truly gifted like Marcus (go to www.marcusfinnie.com and you'll see that he's a great composer and arranger as well as a smokin' hot drummer) people will notice you in the scene and word will get around. I've seen this work for over 30 years in Nashville with players like Avery Johnson (now in Atlanta), Keith Horne, John Billings, Victor Wooten and even in my own musical life.
When I was in college I quit a Rock Band that was just interested in partying, playing bars, and chasing groupies to really focus on school and my playing. To pay the bills I started doing Country Club gigs with a Trio and a Lounge Singer.
The next two times I was on a Rock Tour it was with Danny Tate (who had just written Affair of the Heart for Rick Springfield) and then Dickey Betts. I'm glad I took care of business and learned to play and play well so I was ready when the Real Deal showed up.
Here's another point from a working bassist who is also a Certified Old Guy. If you choose a career for the money you will be mediocre at best at it. Find something you love, really learn all you can about it, work hard at it, never stop learning and you should be all right.
Computer programming was the sure thing until it got outsourced to Bangalore. Financial and Mortgages were the sure thing until October of 2008. Owning a video store was the sure thing until I could go to my cable box and rent a movie or to my Iphone or computer and download one. Journalism was the sure thing until more people started getting their news and opinions from blogs and the internet and less from newspapers and magazines. Industrial design and engineering and a gig with one of The Big Three automakers was a sure thing It goes on and on.....
The only sure thing I've ever been able to find is to be a smart, motivated individual who never stops learning and has a bit of an entrepenuerial streak. Styles of music may change, but I've always noticed that it's hard to find a good bass player who can do all 6 things I put on my list. Whether they're 23 or 53 they always seem to be working, they're generally never loading out the PA at 3 AM after making 50 bucks playing Sweet Home Alabama, and they can put together a good living in any major metropolitan area and not just Nashville, LA or New York.
Hey, I just want to point out that the music business is not shrinking. It is adapting/evolving. Sure, record sales are not what they used to be, but live shows are still around. We are heading in a direction away from major Record Labels. It seems to be like the labels want you to think that the industry won't exist without them. That is not true. There is just less and less need for the labels these days, because money is not made off of record sales anymore.
Granted, I will say that my band has noticed things slowing down, but that is due to the economy. It is not like people are going to stop enjoying music. As long as find a way to get the music to people while getting paid for it, we will continue to survive as professionals.
I told myself I was done with this thread pages ago, but I wanted to point this out. Trust me, as fresh out of college, I am living in 2010, not 1980.
Roy Vogt
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Wow, just wow....I don't know what city you live in, but Nashville is not like that. I don't think you've read all of my posts here. One of the things I have been consistent about with our young friend is trying to help him think of strategies to attend Berklee with little or no cash outlay, like attending as a graduate student on a Teaching Assistantship. You know, like you're talking about with History and Poli-Sci.
Believe me, I realize that Iphone Apps are the primary retail and distribution of a lot of games. Gaming may be as big of a social fad as MySpace, Disco and the AMC Gremlin within your work life.
Do I know how much college costs these days? Hello? Please read my Profile-I've been teaching at 2 major Universities with Music Programs (Belmont and The University of Miami) since 1979. I head a Bass Department with 3 other instructors. Part of my job duties and work life is to help students and their parents put together some sort of plan where they can get through school without being crippled by student loan debt. Most of my students are attending on combination Music/Academic scholarships.
If the OP "kinda sorta might like to play bass, it's cool" he should absolutely have another skill to fall back on. My bass majors can do all of the 6 things I posted in an earlier post to this thread. I've not had a single naysayer post that they have this set of job skills and music didn't work out for them.
You don't just work as a bassist to have a career in Music. Stanley Clarke has made more from scoring films than he has as a Bass Icon for years. Mike Elizondo is producing. Barry Green is leading Creativity and Inner Game of Music workshops. There are far too many ways to make a living as a trained musician than just playing. Those skills can adapt.
Sorry, you can't expect to get in an internet p***ing contest with someone who has been earning a nice living playing and teaching bass and music at a Major University and doing very well at it since before you were born and get anything constructive done..Cheers!
And like I said, I am happy for you, but to say that luck didn't play a part in getting you where you are just isn't the truth. I agree about preparation meeting opportunity, but the opportunity part of the equation is hugely influenced by luck. Preparation you can control; opportunity you cannot.
You can be as prepared as you like, but if there are a thousand equally qualified folks seeking the same single opportunity, the odds of your getting in are slim. Your preparation should be selective; your odds of success are better if you pick a field where there are fewer people chasing more opportunities. This is especially true if that preparation demands a hefty financial investment. Remember, this was a discussion about whether a 16 year old kid should pressure his dad into sending him to Berklee. I think it's a moot point, anyway; unless his family is very well off it's not going to happen, and rightfully so, IMO.
As soon as you act as though age and personal accomplishment means your opinion is automatically more valid regardless of the facts, you don't deserve to be giving advice.
The problem here is that you are being ridiculously passive aggressive. You are attacking me for saying that he should have a backup plan and not to count on anything, and then when I try to back up my stance you say "Hey I just think the same thing!" It's clear from your last sentence that you have an ego problem, so I don't know why I'm bothering.
Roy Vogt
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I am 17 and I graduate from high school in January. Somehow, I want to pursue a career in music, but before I do that, I am going to go to school and get a business degree. Not only is it something to fall back on; it can also be very helpful in a music-related career.
I don't plan on attending a school to play bass; I was thinking more along the lines of audio production. Audio production is a very broad field and it plays a role in pretty much every form of media and would be useful in many different situations. Another thought was going to a trade school to learn luthier skills, and to possibly work as a guitar tech in the future.
However, pursuing music in any form is a life style decision, as has been noted. You have to be dedicated to it, and that may mean sacrificing a family or a lively (non-musical) social life, among other things, so you do have to prioritize.
It's not easy to make a living as a musician. It's hard to get steady gigs to start with, and it's a hard way to live. Often, it takes a toll on people. By going into a field such as audio engineering or any music-related career for that matter, you are doing something musically relevant but it can be easier to find work and opportunities. In turn, that allows you to work and put money into your own music and playing.
Good luck, and I hope this helped a little.
I don't plan on attending a school to play bass; I was thinking more along the lines of audio production. Audio production is a very broad field and it plays a role in pretty much every form of media and would be useful in many different situations. Another thought was going to a trade school to learn luthier skills, and to possibly work as a guitar tech in the future.
However, pursuing music in any form is a life style decision, as has been noted. You have to be dedicated to it, and that may mean sacrificing a family or a lively (non-musical) social life, among other things, so you do have to prioritize.
It's not easy to make a living as a musician. It's hard to get steady gigs to start with, and it's a hard way to live. Often, it takes a toll on people. By going into a field such as audio engineering or any music-related career for that matter, you are doing something musically relevant but it can be easier to find work and opportunities. In turn, that allows you to work and put money into your own music and playing.
Good luck, and I hope this helped a little.
EEK! EEK!Here are some wise words from Damian Erskine:
http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2009/0...es-it-take-to-become-a-professional-musician/
Sorry if anyone has already posted this.
NICE!! Wow, very honest article!
I have not read all 9 pages so forgive me if this has been stated already, but there are no guarantees in ANY field now. The world is simply not set up that way. I was an executive at MTV for 12 years and they decided that I was expendable so I was out. That is the way the world presently works. It matters not if you are in aerospace, corporate finance or work for Home Depot, there is no one watching your back but you.
To the OP: Make the most out of your life. It's not about what your parents want you to do, it's about what you want to do. And I am quite qualified in making this statement; I have 4 kids ages 21, 18, 16 and 10. I would NEVER force them to live their lives as I want them to. It's my job to teach, provide love and guidance and always be there for them. It's not in my nature to say it's my way or the highway. That is not how I was parented and it's not how I parent. I'm sure there are some here on TB that were raised that way...if that works for them, God Bless...but it's my job to live MY life and their job to live theirs, and your job to live yours with as much passion as you can put into it.
By the way, a college degree guarantees you nothing. My oldest has one...she's still looking for her career to start. I have been very successful in the entertainment industry for 27 years and I have no college degree. I am not putting down college - if my kids want to continue their education, I will gladly foot the bill. If they want to do something else, I will help there as well. As long as they are doing what makes them happy...
I have said to many employees over the years if you are not passionate about what you are doing there is no way your body and mind will allow you to excel in it. You can tell the people who hate their jobs, their body language cannot hide it.
Be passionate and live a creative life.
To the OP: Make the most out of your life. It's not about what your parents want you to do, it's about what you want to do. And I am quite qualified in making this statement; I have 4 kids ages 21, 18, 16 and 10. I would NEVER force them to live their lives as I want them to. It's my job to teach, provide love and guidance and always be there for them. It's not in my nature to say it's my way or the highway. That is not how I was parented and it's not how I parent. I'm sure there are some here on TB that were raised that way...if that works for them, God Bless...but it's my job to live MY life and their job to live theirs, and your job to live yours with as much passion as you can put into it.
By the way, a college degree guarantees you nothing. My oldest has one...she's still looking for her career to start. I have been very successful in the entertainment industry for 27 years and I have no college degree. I am not putting down college - if my kids want to continue their education, I will gladly foot the bill. If they want to do something else, I will help there as well. As long as they are doing what makes them happy...
I have said to many employees over the years if you are not passionate about what you are doing there is no way your body and mind will allow you to excel in it. You can tell the people who hate their jobs, their body language cannot hide it.
Be passionate and live a creative life.
+1000
If you want to prove to him you're serious... do it yourself and show him you're serious.
Roy,
I've really appreciated your comments on here. This isn't an attempt to hijack the thread, but to maybe enhance it with some helpful information - for the OP and myself.
I find myself being asked to play in bands a lot because:
1) I never overplay
2) I'm super easy to get along with
These are the biggest complaints I hear from band leaders.
However, although I am able to read music, I feel that I am lacking in ear training. I have a difficult time being able to learn a ton of songs quickly. You spoke earlier about how ear training and harmony are essential for this task.
Can you offer us - the OP and anyone interested in ear training - a resource that may be helpful for becoming more proficient? Maybe some books, audio resources, classes (especially the Nashville Jazz Workshop, since I'm in the area), or anything else that may help?
If you feel this isn't the place to go into this - feel free to pm me. Thanks!
"A good listener is not only popular everywhere, but after a while he gets to know something."
- Wilson Mizner
Roy Vogt
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I have absolutely no ego about this. It frankly doesn't matter if you agree, disagree, or think I'm full of it. I'll continue to teach, play and counsel young bassists. They'll work and succeed. If they change fields it's because they'll make that choice. I seem to detect a lot of hostility in your exchanges with both me and Pacman. Why this is I have no idea. I did not become exasperated with you until you became confontational in our interchange.
FWIW, advice is not offered as ego stroking and experience and accomplishment does factor in. For example, I for sure take heed to Paul Warburton-anyone who played with Bill Evans has something I can use. Peace.
