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How to tell my parents?

If you think a film studio is going to talk to Mike The Sound Guy from the bar vs. a Berklee grad, you are mistaken.

As a 27 year veteran of the TV and Feature Film business I can tell you that you are incorrect.

Studios do not care one bit about a creative individuals collegiate credentials. They want someone who can work with the director and producers who has TALENT and can add the emotion necessary to compliment the visual aspects of the project. Oh yeah, and they have to do it on time and under budget.
 
I hope you are the most talented bassist/musician that Berklee has seen in decades, I honestly do. But......... you must have a back up plan. Get your teaching credential or learn another skill that can support you and a future family also. If you don't you risk living on nothing to pursue a dream for the rest of your life. Don't be like my guitarist friend who is in his mid-sixties and still playing bar gigs to live. His quote to me "to be a professional musician you have to learn to live with nothing". That is not acceptable.

It used to be that anyone desiring a career in music per se had a chance of 1/10000 of making it. It may or may not be worse today. That includes college trained musicians.

You have plenty of time to get an education. Go to Berklee and get your degree then continue on in school towards a solid money making degree. Think and use your time wisely.

Most of all, good luck!
 
I have absolutely no ego about this. It frankly doesn't matter if you agree, disagree, or think I'm full of it. I'll continue to teach, play and counsel young bassists. They'll work and succeed. If they change fields it's because they'll make that choice. I seem to detect a lot of hostility in your exchanges with both me and Pacman. Why this is I have no idea. I did not become exasperated with you until you became confontational in our interchange.
FWIW, advice is not offered as ego stroking and experience and accomplishment does factor in. For example, I for sure take heed to Paul Warburton-anyone who played with Bill Evans has something I can use. Peace.

All I have said is that he should have a backup plan and not rely solely on his musical prospects. You proceeded to attack this point by saying that versatility within the musical field is de facto versatility within the entire workforce. When I tried to back up my point, you responded by saying that you think he should do something similar to what I am saying. That is damn near the definition of being "confrontational". You are fabricating disagreements and responding with what boils down to "I'm older, so shutup."

Maybe you need to go back and read the comments over again.
 
That's a difficult problem.


Parents tend to be realistic. That is for sure. Idealistically, doing your favorite thing for your job is the best. But talking realistic, it's not always the wise way of doing it.

My brother plays Violin and he's in Music College Masters Degree. he first went to Mannes for Bachelor and then Julliard for Master. It's a tough way there but he has won several competitions and I think he has a huge huge potential. Even if you have the talent or even if you are "better" than some of the violinist known in this world, if you don't have the chance, you can't get famous and some people suffer life where you don't know if you can get a meal tomorrow.

Life is like that. Even the talented does not mean success. Some crappy violinist can become famous, unfortunately.

The only reason my parents let him choose his life is probably because they thought he had the talent. Before going to college, he went to preparatory in Mannes, and played solo in a symphony orchestra sometimes. he won two awards and always got 100% in All-State. He was also invited to Hopkins for college.



There HAS to be some way where you can prove yourself. Parents are hard to change. And they have this Last Resort called "I have more life experience than you", which you can't say anything back, really. I hate it when they say that because it's a very sly way to win a conversation, and in fact there people who doesn't learn anything in life even if they have the experience.
As I was writing this post, I also think that maybe your father just don't care about music. you said he said "it's waste of time". he thinks that music is waste of time. he just don't feel any value in music, prior to the problem if whether you can do well in music or not. There has to be some way you can prove that it's not.


Try this: "I'm going to music college. That's final. This is my life and I choose my life." But also give him reasonable plans on how you gonna do it. Being stubborn sometimes work. but just being stubborn don't. Give reasonable explanation and plans as well as showing firm determination that you will not change even if the world ends.

If he becomes one of those tricky parents who says "okay but I'm not gonna pay for it", then you on your own, really. Most parents will end up paying anyway, but very minority sometimes really neglect you in higher education. But Scholarships/Loans work as well. It's risky, but if you have the determination, I think it's one of the possible way.
 
I have not read all 9 pages so forgive me if this has been stated already, but there are no guarantees in ANY field now. The world is simply not set up that way. I was an executive at MTV for 12 years and they decided that I was expendable so I was out. That is the way the world presently works. It matters not if you are in aerospace, corporate finance or work for Home Depot, there is no one watching your back but you.

To the OP: Make the most out of your life. It's not about what your parents want you to do, it's about what you want to do. And I am quite qualified in making this statement; I have 4 kids ages 21, 18, 16 and 10. I would NEVER force them to live their lives as I want them to. It's my job to teach, provide love and guidance and always be there for them. It's not in my nature to say it's my way or the highway. That is not how I was parented and it's not how I parent. I'm sure there are some here on TB that were raised that way...if that works for them, God Bless...but it's my job to live MY life and their job to live theirs, and your job to live yours with as much passion as you can put into it.

By the way, a college degree guarantees you nothing. My oldest has one...she's still looking for her career to start. I have been very successful in the entertainment industry for 27 years and I have no college degree. I am not putting down college - if my kids want to continue their education, I will gladly foot the bill. If they want to do something else, I will help there as well. As long as they are doing what makes them happy...

I have said to many employees over the years if you are not passionate about what you are doing there is no way your body and mind will allow you to excel in it. You can tell the people who hate their jobs, their body language cannot hide it.

Be passionate and live a creative life.

+1,000,000 Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! That has precisely been my point all along. I so appreciate hearing it from another person.
Here is a link to a show called Music Business Radio emanating from Nashville.
Link Removed
The current show is an interview with Dan Miller, a career counseling coach and a big compatriot of Dave Ramsey's. He had some brilliant things to say about realigning in the Music Business and adapting. Please listen if you have time.
One of his points is that the business and economic climate in the last few years has removed all illusions of any field being guaranteed. The auto, financial, housing, construction, advertising, print media and many other fields thought of as "bullet proof" are no longer seen as such. The "new normal" includes working as an independent contractor, supplying your own health insurance and retirement, working in many facets of the same field simultaneously, and in general being lean, mean and adaptable. Music can be as secure a job choice as you choose to make it by making intelligent choices in education, marketing yourself, thinking like a businessman as well as an Artist and many other strategies.
I was happy to hear Dan offer the opinion to not become an IT person or attorney unless you really will love it. If you do it for the money, you will be mediocre at best because your heart won't be in it. Listen to the podcast-it's on there somewhere.
Mark, thank you again for your insightful comments.
 
Roy,

I've really appreciated your comments on here. This isn't an attempt to hijack the thread, but to maybe enhance it with some helpful information - for the OP and myself.

I find myself being asked to play in bands a lot because:

1) I never overplay
2) I'm super easy to get along with

These are the biggest complaints I hear from band leaders.

However, although I am able to read music, I feel that I am lacking in ear training. I have a difficult time being able to learn a ton of songs quickly. You spoke earlier about how ear training and harmony are essential for this task.

Can you offer us - the OP and anyone interested in ear training - a resource that may be helpful for becoming more proficient? Maybe some books, audio resources, classes (especially the Nashville Jazz Workshop, since I'm in the area), or anything else that may help?

If you feel this isn't the place to go into this - feel free to pm me. Thanks!

The Nashville Jazz Workshop has a ton of classes (I'm directing their Yellowjackets Ensemble class right now and for the next 6 weeks). www.nashvillejazz.org I might see if there's a class in Jazz Piano for Non Pianists or Ear-Training. There are ensemble classes all the way from Beginning Rhythm Section Classes to advanced ensembles like the Yellowjackets Ensemble, The Chick Corea Electric Band Ensemble, The Weather Report Ensemble, etc.
The best theory resource I've seen in quite some time is The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine (Sher) www.shermusic.com
If you want another perspective, you can learn the Nashville Number System. It's how we chart Pop, Rock and Country tunes quickly in the Studio and to learn arrangements for performances, tours, etc. It's by Chas Williams, a fine session guitarist that I've recorded with and the bassist on the playalong tracks is Dow Tomlin, one of my old students. Invalid Link Removed
Hope this helps you out.:)
 
+1,000,000 Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! That has precisely been my point all along. I so appreciate hearing it from another person.

Thanks Roy, I call it like I see it. I have been around the block. Many blocks actually, and like you I believe in living the life you are intended to live!! So many people get into the "get a real job or you'll have no security" rut. And believe me, it is a rut, look around at people...the truth is written all over them.

As children we are taught to use our imagination and be as creative as we can be. Then all of a sudden everyone switches gears on us and we are told that we have to pull our heads out of the clouds...time to be serious. So, the first part of what we learned is now crap? NO! This is the reason there are so many f'd up adults in this world. Look around people!!! The guy in the cubicle next to you is MISERABLE!!! And I bet if you asked him he will tell you that he went the "safe" route and did not live the life that was intended for him.

Now, should you make sure that you can take care of yourself financially? Hell yes, and that responsibility compounds when you have a family but there are ways to make it in a creative field and make a good living.

I think most people who have contributed to this thread are of a like mindset - have a plan. When things shift, and they will, be prepared to alter your plan. If you do things the right way and prepare yourself, you can make those changes without having to let go of your dream.

To the OP I can guarantee you one thing - the pain that you may have to endure if you fail at your dream will in no way compare to the pain you will surely endure if you don't follow your dream.

Your parents love you and want the best for you. If a career in music is what's best for you, show them. They will come around because at the end of the day they want you to be happy. Guaranteed.
 
To the OP I can guarantee you one thing - the pain that you may have to endure if you fail at your dream will in no way compare to the pain you will surely endure if you don't follow your dream.

That's true, too. I have a close personal friend who is grieving this very thing. When she wished to go to Music School her mentor said, "Think again!" and steered her into accounting. She was totally miserable and after a foray into IT (also inhabited by many miserable and unhappy people there "for the security") is happily and finally finding her own way as an LMT with her own business and finally playing and studying music, although she grieves daily about all the years wasted in "the sure thing."
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life". Proverbs 13:12 NIV
 
That's true, too. I have a close personal friend who is grieving this very thing. When she wished to go to Music School her mentor said, "Think again!" and steered her into accounting. She was totally miserable and after a foray into IT (also inhabited by many miserable and unhappy people there "for the security") is happily and finally finding her own way as an LMT with her own business and finally playing and studying music, although she grieves daily about all the years wasted in "the sure thing."
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life". Proverbs 13:12 NIV

If I'm ever in Nashville, or you're ever in LA we should have a beer. We think alike...:D

God Bless!
 
To the OP I can guarantee you one thing - the pain that you may have to endure if you fail at your dream will in no way compare to the pain you will surely endure if you don't follow your dream.

This is so true - even when you're "successful" at your 'backup' gig. I have a friend who wanted to pursue a career in graphic design and photography. Instead, she sort of fell into banking - not because she liked it, but because she happened to be good at it. She just tendered her resignation from a $115k per year job with a major bank because (in her words) it was crushing her soul. It also was wreaking havoc on her body and mind. So now, she'll go back to school to do what she'd always wanted to do anyway. Funny how that works.

FYI - my definition of success: Find something you love to do, and then find someone to pay you to do it.

There was a wise man who said, if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life.
 
interesting thread. of course i didn't read all of it, but i have a few thoughts:

1. if you are in it for any other reason than you love and absolutely have to play and create music, you're in it for the wrong reasons.

2. it does not take a college degree from a big music school to get into it. i know many highly trained musicians from colleges that are competing for the same gigs i compete for. i also know many untrained (and in many cases, untalented) people making pretty good bucks because they have other skills, like being able to find work and network. not once have i been asked what college i went to study music. having said that, i'm not at all against paying for education in music, and to be fair there are quite a few folks who have gotten work through networking at college, but it's not the be-all and end-all it's made out to be in the brochures. for every big name that emerges from a college, there are a couple thousand others you'll never hear of.

3. being a total package seems to be where it's at these days. being able to play a few different instruments, being able to program instrument machines and make them sound like music, singing, writing and producing music from start to finish by yourself makes you more valuable in today's market. and most musicians i know who make good money take on as many projects at once as they can possibly handle. some buy pa/lighting and rent it out, some own their own studios, some produce shows, some do (gasp!) dj services, etc. and almost none of them stick rigidly with one band and do nothing else.

4. skill at playing music is a good thing to have, but being a good hang and having good networking skills are just as important, and some would say more important. and no matter how good you are, nobody wants to work with a complaining a-hole who brings everyone down and refuses to cooperate with project leaders and can't take criticism of any kind. networking skills are my downfall, btw. i hate going out to see bands and going to auditions and calling agents and friends and begging for work and the like ;) but when i'm slow i force myself to do it.

anyway, good luck with it. you sound motivated to get something going, and that's half the battle. not everyone has the money to buy their way into rock stardom but there is work to be had.
 
Along with what others have said here, Sean Malone (of Cynic, Aghora and Gordian Knot) has his own take on it:

Sean Malone said:
A lot of guitarists and bassists are drawn to schools such as Berklee and the like, due mainly to their reputation and to the fact that they seem to specialize in areas that more 'traditional' universities may not even offer. In addition, attendees and graduates of these schools are often in bands that many of you admire. (You might notice often in the résumés of performers that they'll mention Berklee or GIT, but notice the wording: the word "graduated" is seen a lot less often than "attended" - this is an important difference that will be addressed later on.)

The first step in determining if furthering your education is something you'd like to do is ask yourself "what is it that I really want to do as a musician?" The second part is "...and what am I willing to sacrifice in order to get it?" The last component to this preliminary stage is "of those things, what might I be able to achieve outside of the academic environment?" So I'll try to go down this list, fill it in a bit with my own experience, peppered with my own opinions, which, of course, should be taken with a grain of salt because what works (or not) for one may not apply at all to any other person.

As I was finishing high school, I was firmly in music's grip (had my first bass, bought for me by my parents from a department store) but was concerned only with playing, and knew only that I was "supposed" to go to college. You know - everyone says you're "supposed" to go to college...I had no idea why I was supposed to, just that I was. One thing I can say for sure though, was at that point I never wanted to try and be a 'rock star' (whatever that might mean) in any way – I had no interest in running away with the musical circus so to speak. What I was interested in was soaking up as much music as possible since it seemed to be everywhere I turned; Florida is great for that. Prog was certainly that upon which I was cutting my teeth, but jazz, pop, rock, flamenco, Afro/Cuban – you name it – was everywhere to be heard and learned. For whatever reason, bass guitar would be the vessel.

I went ahead and started college, taking the core classes to get them out of the way so that when I decided what it was I wanted to do, my last two years would only be filled with only those classes. So try and get all of your English, Math, and Sciences taken care of up front. In my first year of college (at a community college) the mystery of music theory had me firmly in its grip, but at that point all I wanted to do was learn it. Why? Because I felt that I could not only learn music faster but if I understood it, then I'd really be getting so much more out of my own musical experience, either as a listener, a performer, a composer...anything. Also, learning music theory seemed the key to becoming a musician; a term used often too lightly and too quickly and without consideration. At that point it just seemed like everything was possible. So it occurred to me: although playing and composing would be my priority, I could enjoy and earn a living teaching music. But it was apparent that in order to seriously teach music - I mean at the university level - nothing less than a Ph.D. would be needed, and here I was my first year in college as an undergrad. Where I was and where I needed to get to seemed light years apart...and they were, but that was the good part...

So to answer the question - what is it that I really wanted to do as a musician? I wanted to be a bassist and composer that taught music at the college level, probably music theory. (With the possibility that if Peter Gabriel happened to call somewhere in the mean time, well, you know...)* That sounds a lot more 'together' than it actually was, and for sure, don't feel compelled that as a freshman you need to have a plan worked out through your post-graduate years. Not at all. Even though it's what I would shoot for, many, many bumps in the road would come my way, and I still had no idea what it would take, and what I'd be willing to sacrifice to get it.

This ends installment number one. The next installment will deal with getting through either a 2-year AA degree, or a 4-year BA degree, and whether or not majoring in music is the thing to do (in most cases, it isn't).

* Peter hasn't called. Yet. ;)

Sean Malone said:
It seems that entering college or university as a musician makes it easy to decide one's major: music, as either a performer or composer (few undergrad programs have theory as part of their bachelor program). At the end of four years (or possibly five, depending on the program) you'll be bestowed with a degree that indicates you play a certain instrument or, that you compose music. Along the way you've learned much about music theory, history, perhaps some elective courses in music technology and taken part in some ensembles. You've undoubtedly learned, but now what do you do? Of course, that all depends on some of the questions you may have asked yourself along the way, (in part 1) and perhaps steps you've taken to achieve those things. But at the end of the day, in some ways, you're back to where you started before you entered school - you came in with your guitar (or clarinet, etc.) and now you're leaving with it; better for having studied of course, but what can this degree do for you?

If you plan to teach - not very much, graduate school is in your future. If you plan to try and get your band signed, go on the road and all that stuff, labels usually aren't very interested or impressed with diplomas. Many undergraduate students in music find themselves wondering what to do as they come close to finishing their degrees, and if the answer doesn't involve more schooling, it sometimes turns into a crisis situation. Again, it all depends on the type of school and program you've entered - if you've completed a tech program in engineering there might very well be a placement program for graduates. What I'm speaking about is the performance degree.

This leads me to recommend something I have seen a few undergraduate students do when they get to this point - something for which you could plan ahead before a crisis occurs: become a music minor, and major in something else. By doing so, you get almost all of the music education you would as a major PLUS training in an area that could help you find a job to support you as you pursue a music career, in whatever capacity.

A combination I often see is majoring in computer science with a minor in music performance. With the tech market still wide open, the chances of getting a job are much better than, say, getting signed to Sony at the moment. By choosing to minor in music, you will still take all of the core classes and ensembles - the main difference is usually in the amount of contact hours you have with private lessons, as well as a smaller recital requirement. This way you get the best of both worlds: the music training you are looking for, and a diploma with which you can actually do something. Immediately upon graduating with a Bachelor's degree, you have employment opportunities that a performance major could only dream of. I know it might seem hard to make this choice, especially since you've been gearing yourself up for your Berklee audition and are dreaming about days and nights spent practicing and jamming with your friends. But, try to see yourself four years from now; what's your next move? Success in the music industry, however that may be measured, has very little to do with actual talent and ability. In many ways, your success sometimes depends on the things you don't do, and the rest is just being in the right place at the right time (but you can take measures to be in the right place...)

So, to summarize, it's possible to receive the music education you've been dreaming about and at the same time, receive training in other areas, making you all the more marketable. I've seen many undergrads take business classes with the idea it will help them both as performers (contracts, etc.) or possibly as band managers. There is also a tech/music combo that makes a musician invaluable to a recording studio - there are so many combinations and possibilities. Just beware of the performance degree if you are a music major - it might very well be it's just the first step on your way to an orchestral career, but if popular music is the field in which you're most interested, take advantage of every opportunity university has to offer.

Most importantly, take advantage of the counselors the university provides. They are the ones that can best help you plan your academic career, and make suggestions if you decide to make changes along the way.
 
I love Sean Malone's posts. At Belmont (and I'm sure many other schools do this including Berklee) we offer Commercial Music with Performance, Music Business, Songwriting, Composition and Arranging, and Music Tech Emphasis. With the exception of Performance, all of them can be gateways to other aspects of the Music Industry and other businesses. The Performance Majors I have have all opted to prepare for Graduate School in Industry Centers like New York and Los Angeles, for the most part. Even Songwriting can prepare someone for Music Publishing or working for BMI, ASCAP or SESAC all of whom have big offices here. A lot of times I try to steer people into Music Tech. Several of my recent grads are producing CD projects for Singer/Songwriters and Bands on their laptops and getting paid to do so. It's sort of the flip of the Music Minor, in that it's a Music Major with a non-traditional (theory, education, etc.) and non-performing emphasis that functions as a Minor. The only drag I see for our Music Minors is that some ensembles and having Electric Bass as their Performance Instrument are closed to them-they have to study Classical String Bass as a Music Minor and Electric Bass is only offered as one of their Elective Classes.
 
The Nashville Jazz Workshop has a ton of classes (I'm directing their Yellowjackets Ensemble class right now and for the next 6 weeks). www.nashvillejazz.org I might see if there's a class in Jazz Piano for Non Pianists or Ear-Training. There are ensemble classes all the way from Beginning Rhythm Section Classes to advanced ensembles like the Yellowjackets Ensemble, The Chick Corea Electric Band Ensemble, The Weather Report Ensemble, etc.
The best theory resource I've seen in quite some time is The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine (Sher) www.shermusic.com
If you want another perspective, you can learn the Nashville Number System. It's how we chart Pop, Rock and Country tunes quickly in the Studio and to learn arrangements for performances, tours, etc. It's by Chas Williams, a fine session guitarist that I've recorded with and the bassist on the playalong tracks is Dow Tomlin, one of my old students. Invalid Link Removed
Hope this helps you out.:)

Great - thanks Roy!

I had no idea the Nashville Jazz Workshop existed until this thread, but I will definitely be signing up for that.
 
Great - thanks Roy!

I had no idea the Nashville Jazz Workshop existed until this thread, but I will definitely be signing up for that.

It's a great environment-I highly recommend it if you can't attend a full-time University program, want to brush up on a few skills, etc. Cool people and a great hang!:)
 
My turn...

Here's the truth. Bill Gates, Michael Dell and even Richard Branson all went for at least two years to college or post-secondary school. So, a college degree in and of itself does nothing but teach you to work for others. But I am not putting it down, so don't take it that way.

Tom Scholz has a Masters in Electrical Engineering. I am pretty sure Steve Ripley does too. Both are amazing musicians (heck, Boston rocks!) AND have side careers making equipment for the music biz.

If your dream is to work in a wedding band or give lessons for the rest of your life, go to Berklee and finish. If not, then Berklee need not be your place for musical education. As others have said here, there are plenty of places to get an excellent education in music.

Now, having said that, the reason you would go to Berklee is the connections you make. Berklee puts a ton of uber talented kids in Boston. You meet some, click, form a band and off you go. The Blake Babies. Aimee Mann and Til Tuesday. The list of more better bands that each found each other going to Berklee is long. So for me, Berklee is more about who you meet more then what you will learn.

Either way, sit down and talk to your dad. He'll be pleasantly surprised. Explain to him that you understand he only wants the best for you. Tell him that he raised his child right, to be someone who works hard and studies and will stand on their own two feet. Reassure him that should the music not work out as planned, you promise to no sponge off him or rely on him for your sustainance. Let him know you will work triple shifts at McD's before you would ask him for a handout.

My guess is he will feel proud, and come around to support you. And he will be there when you need him.

My two cents...
 
I love Sean Malone's posts. At Belmont (and I'm sure many other schools do this including Berklee) we offer Commercial Music with Performance, Music Business, Songwriting, Composition and Arranging, and Music Tech Emphasis. With the exception of Performance, all of them can be gateways to other aspects of the Music Industry and other businesses. The Performance Majors I have have all opted to prepare for Graduate School in Industry Centers like New York and Los Angeles, for the most part. Even Songwriting can prepare someone for Music Publishing or working for BMI, ASCAP or SESAC all of whom have big offices here. A lot of times I try to steer people into Music Tech. Several of my recent grads are producing CD projects for Singer/Songwriters and Bands on their laptops and getting paid to do so. It's sort of the flip of the Music Minor, in that it's a Music Major with a non-traditional (theory, education, etc.) and non-performing emphasis that functions as a Minor. The only drag I see for our Music Minors is that some ensembles and having Electric Bass as their Performance Instrument are closed to them-they have to study Classical String Bass as a Music Minor and Electric Bass is only offered as one of their Elective Classes.
i think a music program at a school like yours is a pretty attractive way to go. it seems like they're more interested in (for lack of a better term) real world aspects of the music business.