Hybrid vs Tube

[GreyBeard]

This is an issue that we never get tired of discussing. I played an Alembic F1-X and a Ampeg SVP-Pro into a QSC-PLX 1202 through several different cabs including a Accugroove Whappo Jr. I also played a Sunn 200S through a 2x15 cab for many years and before that I used a SS Kustom 200. So I am pretty familiar with the sound of all tube, hybrid, and solid state. All tube and hybrid sound very similar but they feel different. SS has a somewhat more clinical sound that you either love or you hate. The audience and your band mates won't care what you use as long as it does the job. A good tube pre into a high power amp will give you the heft and weight as long as things remain clean.

 

[nostatic]

I really respect the information I get here on TB, but most of what I have read about my post alludes to tone, and a few just flat out insulting me because I dare ask this question. I would not be here asking if I didn't think I could get good information. I'm just trying to get the best information I can without being able to try things for myself.

Seems you're talking specifically about power tube sag. That is kind of the opposite of most class D power sections. That said, I was always pretty happy with the way a Jule Monique preamp "felt" if I wanted that chewy feeling.

The other solution, overlooked by many, is a good compressor (like, a *really* good compressor). That can give some sag feel to your setup depending on how you set it and your technique.

As a few others have mentioned, Mesa WD-800 might scratch that itch. It has the tube edge on the front end, and you also have adjustable power amp damping which gives different feels (though it is subtle).

If you played older class D heads, you shouldn't assume that the current crop "feel" the same, especially wrt "heft." At least some of the manufacturers are on their 3rd/4th/5th generation designs, and they've gotten very good.

 

[Nighttrain1127]

like tubes as much as the next guy. You are ascribing the term Bottom End Authority to tube amps like it means something. It just means you like tube amps.

What it means is self explanatory. Sorry if you don't understand plain English. And I do like tube amps but I also like SS amps so explain that if you thing you are able

 

[agedhorse]

I disagree with the whole wattage thing. The Ampeg v4b is just 100 watts and it is all that I am asking about, it just isn't loud enough. Messengers not shot!!

If it isn't loud enough, you need more power, and enough speaker capacity to handle that power.

That IS the "wattage thing"

 

[Downunderwonder]

like tubes as much as the next guy. You are ascribing the term Bottom End Authority to tube amps like it means something. It just means you like tube amps.

What it means is self explanatory. Sorry if you don't understand plain English. And I do like tube amps but I also like SS amps so explain that if you thing you are able

you need to insert some

[quate] [/quote]

tags

^ so here's some misspelled for free ^

Bottom End Authority is missing from SS amps, only in your world.

 

[MVE]

I’d be afraid to Google “Bottom End Authority” at work, kinda sounds like a cop themed porno.

 

[Nighttrain1127]

If you don't understand what I mean ask instead of attack. And no it is not just in my world that the low end (for lack of a better descriptor) Slam See also authority is missing. I have a great sounding 1,000 watt class d amp It is very warm and sounds very much like my Fender Bassman 300 Pro , My Fender Super bassman and my two Ampeg SVT's . I also have several other well thought of SS amps . But they can not touch any of the tube heads for that low end slam that all of the tube amps have . Sorry if you don't agree then fine I agree to disagree with you. But I am not the only one that says the exact same thing.

 

[Nighttrain1127]

How about low End Authority then. No cops no law enforcement required . Should be work place safe but I have no Idea what you would get for results. If you don't get what I mean you have never played an SVT through an 810 at loud outdoors levels would be my guess. They just have some thing in the lower mid bass/upper low bass that slams like no other amp I have ever played . I am not saying SS amps can not deliver the lows just that there is something special with how tubes do it.

 

[Downunderwonder]

How about low End Authority then. No cops no law enforcement required . Should be work place safe but I have no Idea what you would get for results. If you don't get what I mean you have never played an SVT through an 810 at loud outdoors levels would be my guess. They just have some thing in the lower mid bass/upper low bass that slams like no other amp I have ever played . I am not saying SS amps can not deliver the lows just that there is something special with how tubes do it.

So Lowish End Authority is that thing the SVT does then. Ok. Plenty of amps can do that they just don't have quite the tonality going with that you are used to.

 

[Nighttrain1127]

I don't think it is tonality. And If I had a good description of what it feels and sounds like at the same time . I have several very powerful SS amps and none of them can do what the tubes do and just to make things even they were all run through my Berg NV 610. SVT's do that and special grindy thing in the low mids . It is what the rock n roll sound is. But I digress. And I guess I should have gone the try to explain route instead of taking offense where there probably was none intended. If you read some of the tube amp threads you will see people trying to say what they hear and sometimes that can be a difficult thing to get across without the other person hearing it at the same time and one going see that there is what I mean.

 

[johnk_10]

i grew up with tube amps when i started playing bass in 1967. my first tube amp was a '62 blonde fender showman. it was, and still is, my favorite sounding bass amp. back in the early 70's, when i needed more volume, i just used two of them. i also used Kustom K200's with JBL 215 cabs for a while in '69 which i actually still like a lot.

later, i got into acoustic 360's & 370's and even used two Sunn Concert bass amps for a while, and then a Coliseum 880 w/2 412 cabs. i found the SS to be a little lacking (tone and feel-wise) so i went with SVT/810 rigs for decades. nowadays i use a 67 showman/115 tone ring cab for my quieter to medium sized gigs, a fender supertwin head with a 215 cab for the larger ones and an SVT-VR 215 or 810 for the really big ones. i still have my GB streamliner 900, SVT7-pro and a GK 1001RB and i occasionally use them but i just can't get quite the same, sensitivity, clarity and feel from them as my 100% tube amps. out of all of my SS or hybrids, IMO, the GB Streamliner 900 comes the closest.
IMO, a Sunn 200S or a Sunn 2000S are some of the best sounding (and feeling) bass amps ever made, and i've owned a lot of them over the years.

 

[Dwight]

Mesa WD-800 oozes tubey deliciousness. It would do just fine in a Pepsi Challenge with a good all-tube amp and weighs just 7 lb.

Mesa WD800 - This hybrid head had the "tube amp feel" in the notes at least at the clean settings. I did not test the overdrive capabilities. The Power Amp Damping knob is the knob to really mess with. The feeling of a tube amp is right there. Blew me away!

The Mesa WD800 is the closest I’ve played.

I appreciate the enthusiasm for this head, I have one coming on the brown truck tomorrow!

 

[GreyBeard]

i grew up with tube amps when i started playing bass in 1967. my first tube amp was a '62 blonde fender showman. it was, and still is, my favorite sounding bass amp. back in the early 70's, when i needed more volume, i just used two of them. i also used Kustom K200's with JBL 215 cabs for a while in '69 which i actually still like a lot.

later, i got into acoustic 360's & 370's and even used two Sunn Concert bass amps for a while, and then a Coliseum 880 w/2 412 cabs. i found the SS to be a little lacking (tone and feel-wise) so i went with SVT/810 rigs for decades. nowadays i use a 67 showman/115 tone ring cab for my quieter to medium sized gigs, a fender supertwin head with a 215 cab for the larger ones and an SVT-VR 215 or 810 for the really big ones. i still have my GB streamliner 900, SVT7-pro and a GK 1001RB and i occasionally use them but i just can't get quite the same, sensitivity, clarity and feel from them as my 100% tube amps. out of all of my SS or hybrids, IMO, the GB Streamliner 900 comes the closest.
IMO, a Sunn 200S or a Sunn 2000S are some of the best sounding (and feeling) bass amps ever made, and i've owned a lot of them over the years.

I played horn in a couple of bands that the bass player was using a Sunn 2000S head with 2 Sunn 200S cabs loaded with JBL D140's. (4x15's) Some of the fullest bass tone I've ever heard.

 

[jastacey]

The Fender TB-1200, is one amp that has a tube feel, and has that low end slam

 

[D.A.R.K.]

I don't think it is tonality. And If I had a good description of what it feels and sounds like at the same time . I have several very powerful SS amps and none of them can do what the tubes do and just to make things even they were all run through my Berg NV 610. SVT's do that and special grindy thing in the low mids . It is what the rock n roll sound is. But I digress. And I guess I should have gone the try to explain route instead of taking offense where there probably was none intended. If you read some of the tube amp threads you will see people trying to say what they hear and sometimes that can be a difficult thing to get across without the other person hearing it at the same time and one going see that there is what I mean.

Seems what tube power section folks actually like here is extreme coloration, compression and harmonic distortion. None of which are really clarity, or authority to me personally -but it's all good. Just making an observation based on the descriptions given. And, yeah, that's tonality.

 

[johnk_10]

hmm. i don't find most tube amps to have extreme coloration, compression and distortion at all. and when they are pushed into distortion, they do it much more gracefully than their SS counterparts.

 

[bucephylus]

Potaytos-Potahtos

I’ve also played the tube amps from way back; so, am pretty familiar with what they do.

There are several problems with this discussion. Informed players who have gigged a sufficient number of the hybrid amps to find the ones that work for them will generally be perfectly happy playing an SVT, Super Bassman or whatever, if someone else wants to lug it. Either format can produce great tones. Where the discussion gets rough is when it gets tribal in a one vs the other confrontation. My sense is that the tubes or nothing mind made up crowd either doesn’t have gig experience with the better hybrid rigs or has some unmet need to climb the wall. To which I say knock yourselves out.

Or, as stated in many posts, some just need power section overdrive for their “sound.” This latter is the legit reason for choice. If we are getting into arguments about “heft” and “slam” for either format running clean, you’ll just have to excuse me while I go make some popcorn.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

hmm. i don't find most tube amps to have extreme coloration, compression and distortion at all. and when they are pushed into distortion, they do it much more gracefully than their SS counterparts.

All those elements are exactly what tubes are all about. Endless threads on such characteristics here. SS is not meant to work in such a way. But one person's clean channel is another person's drive, that's the nature of individual taste.

 

[DoctorZee]

I got a Fender Bassman 500 recently and love it. It’s a Class D hybrid, so it’s light as a feather, and to my ears it sounds full and classic.

The Orange Terror Bass sounds great in demos, too, but I have never tried one myself.

 

[JimmyM]

All those elements are exactly what tubes are all about. Endless threads on such characteristics here. SS is not meant to work in such a way. But one person's clean channel is another person's drive, that's the nature of individual taste.

Gotta agree with John on this one, and here's why...

Coloration of tone---some amps do it, some don't, and topology is completely unrelated to it. SVT's and B-15's have a little coloration with knobs at noon, V4B and PF-50T don't, while Fender, Marshall, and Hiwatt can be pretty extreme with the coloration in their tube amps. But so can Fender, Hartke, and GK SS amps. You can also move knobs to get a more flat-response sound if that's your thing, too. So it's not a given that all you can get out of tube amps is a colorized tone, nor is it a given that SS amps will give you uncolored tone.

Compression---I don't like it and try to avoid it. Yes, when you start to crank tube amps into the red, compression will start, and it's lovely if you like that sort of thing. But I don't, at least on a gig, and if I'm cranking a tube amp, I'm doing it to get distortion, which I do like to do when I record but no other time because people will complain that I'm too loud. But to my ears, the sound of a tube amp not being pushed is very uncompressed. Not to say that I haven't got good tones with little or no compression out of SS amps, but I just don't hear compression in tube amps running clean. And again, topology is unrelated, and SS amps can compress just as easily as tube amps. I once AB'd my SVT and Little Mark II that I used to have on a gig, and the LMII was noticeably compressing my sound while the SVT wasn't. So my belief is that if a tube amp is compressing, it's a user choice, or a design choice and not law.

Distortion---THD is rated at the top of their RMS wattage, and traditionally, tube amps have been given a lot more leeway over it because they usually have a more graceful easing into it than SS, so at their top clean volume, you can have more distortion and still sound clean. But what if you back off the volume a little? Or a lot, as what happens when I use an SVT or V4B? That THD level goes down accordingly. How far down, I don't know, but it sounds as clean to me as the cleanest of SS amps.

So while tube amps do lend themselves to these characteristics, it's not necessarily what we want out of them or why we like them.