I am befuddled.. Protools or Logic

[needmoney]

I'm buying a Macbook next month, and I need to decide which setup to buy..

Mbox2/Pro Tools LE/Some addons

M-Audio Fast Track Pro/Logic Pro

No questions, just tell me which one you would prefer for some experimental solo bass recordings for University, and probably some other stuff as well.

 

[geoffkhan]

If you think you might get into MIDI, I'd advise Logic, since ProTools' MIDI is absolutely terrible. However, ProTools is great with audio...

Really I think either one is a good choice. I noticed on Marcus Miller's latest CD it says it was made in Logic if I remember correctly.

 

[DougP]

Logic has a heck of a learning curve at first but it is extremely capable. i only have experience with older ProTools for OS9 and its ok.

Since you are using a Mac, i would suggest Logic since it will integrate with GB, iTunes, and Quicktime. It also has some great plug-ins.

 

[andrewd]

i voted for logic. it's hard to say about the m-audio interface. those can be hit or miss, but the mbox 2 isn't any better. my friend's mbox totally died.

definitely get something firewire based.

have you considered ableton live?

 

[DougP]

i'd even go so far as to suggest seeing if you can get by with what GarageBand is capable of.

 

[Doctor J]

Protools for me. I had an mbox for years with no problems, just bought a Digi002 and the midi is a lot better than it used to be. PT7 is less resource hungry than PT6 too. Since a lot of studios run protools too it's great to be able to work on projects at home, bring them into a studio and work on them there too and vice versa.

 

[chrisp2u]

If you think you might get into MIDI, I'd advise Logic, since ProTools' MIDI is absolutely terrible. However, ProTools is great with audio...

Yeah, not sure which version of PT you're speaking of, but version 7 is a completely different animal in many respects compared to previous versions. It's come a long way in the last couple versions... not saying there isn't room for improvement/fixes, but it's pretty solid these days.

Don't think I'd get an mBox2 though. Get one of the better m-audio interfaces, preferably with S/PDIF or ADAT lightpipe (like an 1814) so you can expand it later to add better pres/clocking/conversion and get the m-powered version of PT. You should be able to get the m-powered software and a 1814 for around $600 if you look around... which isn't all that much more than the mbox... and you'll have something with more capability.
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[geoffkhan]

Yeah, not sure which version of PT you're speaking of, but version 7 is a completely different animal in many respects compared to previous versions. It's come a long way in the last couple versions... not saying there isn't room for improvement/fixes, but it's pretty solid these days.

Don't think I'd get an mBox2 though. Get one of the better m-audio interfaces, preferably with S/PDIF or ADAT lightpipe (like an 1814) so you can expand it later to add better pres/clocking/conversion and get the m-powered version of PT. You should be able to get the m-powered software and a 1814 for around $600 if you look around... which isn't all that much more than the mbox... and you'll have something with more capability.
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Yes, I'm talking about ProTools 7.

Here's a shootout that should settle some of the debate:

[This invalid link has been removed]

Don't get it wrong, ProTools is great for recording bands and recording audio. But as a DAW in general, it doesn't compare to some other products out there. Especially with their very limited MIDI support.

 

[chrisp2u]

The original poster said he's getting a macbook though... that survey seems pretty biased toward PC to me. Honestly, I wouldn't put much weight in that survey assessment. but as all things... everyone has their own opinion and opinions are subjective... and that seems as though it's mostly one mans opinion... though he likes to use the word "we" throughout to make it hold more water (maybe it was a guy and his buddy then).

There seem to be a lot of PT haters out there. Seems like a lot of people often base their opinion without spending a lot of time with it. I've tried a bunch of different DAW's over the years... but always come back to PT. It just feels comfortable to me (outside of hitting occassional limitations). To each their own though. The MIDI isn't that bad, and if you don't use it anyway, who cares? The only thing that the MIDI implementation is missing as far as I can tell is effects. I've never used those anyway, and I'm not even sure what they'd be good for.

Download some demos of all the DAW software you can find and mess around with them. Make a decision based on what feels right for you. Unfortunately, Digidesign doesn't have a demo anymore (since OS9 at least), so you may have to go to your local GC or something and mess with it there.

Logic and Live were good suggestions too on the mac side. I use Ableton Live quite a bit too... it's an excellent composition tool for just messing around and throwing ideas together... can be quite inspiring.
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[andrewd]

i wouldn't take too much out of that comparison grid either - they didn't include logic - pro or express!

how can they include acid but not live?

 

[geoffkhan]

I'm not dissing ProTools at all. I use it occassionally, and it is a good DAW. However, come on, after using Sonar or similar DAW, how can ProTools' MIDI support even compare? It doesn't.

But for audio recording -- recording live shows or bands, etc. -- PT rocks!

Now why does ProTools LE have a 32-track limit? I don't go over 32 tracks very often, but it does occasionally happen. Sonar fortunately has unlimited tracks (or basically as many as your computer speed will allow you to have!)

We'll wait for the next version of ProTools though, as there are some things in there that they definitely need to get up-to-date with, I.E. MIDI, surround sound support (which is nil at the moment), etc.

EDIT: Any by the way, concerning the accuracy of the DAW shootout:

Accuracy

While are opinions are our own, we want to make sure this analysis is factually accurate. The analysis is an expansion of several previous analyses that we have published involving the Sonar Producer Edition, Cubase SX, and Acid Pro. The content of those analyses was reviewed by representatives from Cakewalk, Steinberg, and Sony for accuracy. All vendors represented in this analysis have been invited to review the results and we will update the analysis with any changes necessary.

 

[chrisp2u]

I'm not dissing ProTools at all. I use it occassionally, and it is a good DAW. However, come on, after using Sonar or similar DAW, how can ProTools' MIDI support even compare? It doesn't.

But for audio recording -- recording live shows or bands, etc. -- PT rocks!

I'm not trying to pick at you or be an a-hole here or anything... it's just that I see the criticism of PT MIDI all the time everywhere and everybody always says that it's no good but I never see an explanation of why... just blanket statements. Out of curiousity, in your opinion, what is it that's missing or that you don't like about it? It's quite possible that I don't use MIDI enough to know what I'm missing, but PT has come a long, long way in the last couple versions.

Now why does ProTools LE have a 32-track limit? I don't go over 32 tracks very often, but it does occasionally happen. Sonar fortunately has unlimited tracks (or basically as many as your computer speed will allow you to have!)

We'll wait for the next version of ProTools though, as there are some things in there that they definitely need to get up-to-date with, I.E. MIDI, surround sound support (which is nil at the moment), etc.

Actually, you can get 48 tracks now, for a bit of extra $$$, which admittedly is very lame. The "unlimited tracks" thing that most other DAWS boast does crack me up too... MMV as you've pointed out based on your host.

One thing you have to keep in mind, PTLE is geared to home recording musicians essentially... it's not really intended to be "pro" per se (that's why they sell HD), though many pros do in fact use it. I don't think the average home recordist is going to be doing 5.1 surround mixes, so why add the clutter? If you're doing multimedia like video games, or movie soundtracks then it might be a prob, but for the average musician guy that wants to blast out a demo in his bedroom... don't think so. Most musicians I know can't even afford a DAW setup, let alone the proper monitoring to mix a surround track

There's definitely room for improvement in PT, and I hope to see it soon... the main issue being the lack of automatic delay compensation for 3rd party plugin latency. But overall, for me at least... It's a great app. I do use MIDI a bit here and there, though not for any heavy duty programming... mostly just to capture performances.

Another DAW the original poster might want to check out is Traktion. I've recently messed with that a bit and it was pretty interesting and sounded pretty good. The interface was a bit of a different twist on the typical DAW... somewhat like LIVE.

EDIT: Any by the way, concerning the accuracy of the DAW shootout:

They do admit that it's their own opinion there... i'm not quite sure what the fact of the manufacturers reading them means...they could still post whatever they want regardless... I don't see any comments from the manufacturers anywhere in retort. I'm guessing they all didn't think that the reviews were dead on assessments of their products... nobody wants to hear their baby is ugly.
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[geoffkhan]

I'm not trying to pick at you or be an a-hole here or anything... it's just that I see the criticism of PT MIDI all the time everywhere and everybody always says that it's no good but I never see an explanation of why... just blanket statements. Out of curiousity, in your opinion, what is it that's missing or that you don't like about it? It's quite possible that I don't use MIDI enough to know what I'm missing, but PT has come a long, long way in the last couple versions.

Looks like I'm out of date here, after looking at the latest version of Pro Tools, I found out that it now has even such MIDI features as groove quantizing, etc. So it appears that they really got on the ball and caught up with a lot of the other DAWs in the MIDI world. Some questions I still have include: it has a piano roll, but does it have a score view? Does it support sysex? How is its MIDI out to external MIDI devices? It doesn't look like it supports the pattern brush tool?

You're right though, Pro Tools has come a long way in MIDI support.

Actually, you can get 48 tracks now, for a bit of extra $$$, which admittedly is very lame. The "unlimited tracks" thing that most other DAWS boast does crack me up too... MMV as you've pointed out based on your host.

Like I said, there have been times I've gone over 32 tracks and thought... those poor ProTools users.

ProTools HD has up to 192 tracks, but how much more does it cost?

But I think my ultimate gripe conscerning ProTools is the lack of track freezing capability. I hope they implement that SOON, because that's a very essential feature.

 

[chrisp2u]

Looks like I'm out of date here, after looking at the latest version of Pro Tools, I found out that it now has even such MIDI features as groove quantizing, etc. So it appears that they really got on the ball and caught up with a lot of the other DAWs in the MIDI world. Some questions I still have include: it has a piano roll, but does it have a score view? Does it support sysex? How is its MIDI out to external MIDI devices? It doesn't look like it supports the pattern brush tool?

You're right though, Pro Tools has come a long way in MIDI support.

Still piano roll view only as far as I know, no score view (I haven't had a lot of time to sepnd with the latest version over the past couple months since I upgraded). I've never used it, but there is sysex dump support (supposedly). I've run MIDI out to trigger YAMAHA synths, my Roland TD-20 drum module, as well as a DR-660 drum machine and I had with no problems. There have been reports of occassional bug issues between version that have made PT's MIDI a bit unreliable (drifting, dropping notes, etc.)... don't think I've ever had any issue with it though as of late. Can't say I'm familiar with a pattern brush feature.

Like I said, there have been times I've gone over 32 tracks and thought... those poor ProTools users.

ProTools HD has up to 192 tracks, but how much more does it cost?

But I think my ultimate gripe conscerning ProTools is the lack of track freezing capability. I hope they implement that SOON, because that's a very essential feature.

Yeah, the jump to HD is a bit steep from LE. I'm thinking that with their purchase of m-audio... introducing the m-powered version of PT, LE will eventually end up more mid-range when they introduce a new interface to fill that gap. Right now there's not a whole lot separating LE from m-powered. Plus, with host computer processing power ever increasing, it's about time for something a bit more hefty.

Good call on the track freezing too. That's another missing feature that has been heavily discussed amongst PT users.
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[geoffkhan]

Still piano roll view only as far as I know, no score view (I haven't had a lot of time to sepnd with the latest version over the past couple months since I upgraded).

Just wondering. Actually I mostly only use piano roll views (as do most of the other computer musicians I know), so score view is not THAT important. Though one time in which I use the score view over piano roll is when writing orchestral arrangements. You just have to see all the MIDI parts together at the same time, and the score view happens to be the best at this.

I've never used it, but there is sysex dump support (supposedly).

The reason sysex can be useful is with the older synths. I don't know how much people use it these days, but with my old Alesis QS6, sysex can be very handy, both at keeping backups of the preset data, and at storing custom presets within songs.

I've run MIDI out to trigger YAMAHA synths, my Roland TD-20 drum module, as well as a DR-660 drum machine and I had with no problems. There have been reports of occassional bug issues between version that have made PT's MIDI a bit unreliable (drifting, dropping notes, etc.)... don't think I've ever had any issue with it though as of late.

Sounds like MIDI is pretty successful for you!

How are you hooking the MIDI devices to you computer? Drifting/dropping notes could be a problem there and not with ProTools, especially if you're using MIDI cables, rather than serial cables/USB (whatever they're using these days).

Can't say I'm familiar with a pattern brush feature.

Pattern brush can be useful in certain instances when you're feeling particularly lazy. I use it mainly with drum/percussion rolls. You select a pattern such (ex. "conga roll 1") and then, holding down the mouse button and dragging it, "paint" the pre-made MIDI where you want it.

Good call on the track freezing too. That's another missing feature that has been heavily discussed amongst PT users.

I always have some EQ and other effects on all of my tracks (used very lightly, but it still takes up CPU), so I always keep the tracks I'm not working on frozen.

 

[chrisp2u]

Just wondering. Actually I mostly only use piano roll views (as do most of the other computer musicians I know), so score view is not THAT important. Though one time in which I use the score view over piano roll is when writing orchestral arrangements. You just have to see all the MIDI parts together at the same time, and the score view happens to be the best at this.

Yeah, I could see that being useful in orchestration.

The reason sysex can be useful is with the older synths. I don't know how much people use it these days, but with my old Alesis QS6, sysex can be very handy, both at keeping backups of the preset data, and at storing custom presets within songs.

Seems there are a few people I've seen on boards that are still using the sysex dumps, most likely for the reasons you've described. Good ol' SCSI for me for loading/backing up data to and from my old EX5 synth when I need it.

Sounds like MIDI is pretty successful for you!

How are you hooking the MIDI devices to you computer? Drifting/dropping notes could be a problem there and not with ProTools, especially if you're using MIDI cables, rather than serial cables/USB (whatever they're using these days).

Just hooked up via a good quality MIDI cable... all the stuff I hook up via MIDI is generally older... so no fancy connections

Most of the issues were definitely in the software as people would be griping on the Digi User Conference board (and still do often). The only issue I ran into, which was in an earlier version of PT6, was that it would for some reason drop the first note if it was at the top of the track... so you'd have to offset it in a second or 2, which was kind of odd.

Pattern brush can be useful in certain instances when you're feeling particularly lazy. I use it mainly with drum/percussion rolls. You select a pattern such (ex. "conga roll 1") and then, holding down the mouse button and dragging it, "paint" the pre-made MIDI where you want it.

I kinda figured that was how it worked... definitely more convenient for the lazy man to avoid a couple gratuitous key commands to cut and paste

I'm actually not sure if the newer version has this functionality or not as I haven't done much MIDI lately. Don't recall seeing it, but then again, I probably only use 15% of the functionality of that app anyway

Guess we've probably hijacked this thread enough
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[geoffkhan]

Just hooked up via a good quality MIDI cable... all the stuff I hook up via MIDI is generally older... so no fancy connections

Yeah, I still use MIDI cables, and they work fine since I usually only need a MIDI out from my keyboard to use it to control VSTis. I used to use my keyboards to handle all the synth sounds, and that's when you start getting some notes played late, etc.

 

[The Funk]

I use Pro Tools and I have to say that it's as easy to use as Cubase and sounds just a bit better than Logic (and sh!tloads better than Cubase).

As for the whole MIDI thing, it's really a bit of a distraction. I got into MIDI when I first got into home recording 6 years ago. But the whole point of a home recording set-up was to be able to actually record audio. And for that, Pro Tools is the my favourite.

It is also the least flexible in terms of which combination of soundcards and software you use but the MBox and MBox2 are both fairly decent (if not as sexy as the Mackie or Focusrite equivalents) and it is designed to work perfectly with the Pro Tools software.

Another consideration is the fact that when you buy the MBox, you get the hardware and software together all included in the price. By the way, with the MBox, you can run Logic or Cubase using the MBox as your soundcard, so it doesn't have to be an either or thing.

Another thing is that I found the MIDI functions on Logic to be pretty crappy compared to Cubase (although the audio was much, much better).

My recommendation would be to run Pro Tools together with a dedicated MIDI application such as Reason or Cubase. But if you're not going to use MIDI, then it shouldn't be a consideration at all.

One thing I like about Pro Tools is the zero latency on RTAS plug-ins. There are probably a greater number of plug-ins available for Logic (and they all seem very high quality) but last I checked, each plug-in added latency to each audio track it was applied to (and always in a random and unpredictable way that's difficult to compensate for).

Ultimately though, different people find different systems and layouts intuitive to use so maybe the best advice is to try a couple of different systems.

One piece of advice I will give is don't let your home studio expand too much. Mine took over my small apartment until it just became a storage area. Thankfully, someone I know has built a fully-fledged recording studio and all my studio equipment has since gone there, so now my home studio can actually be a micro home recording set-up rather than trying to turn my home into Abbey Road.

 

[geoffkhan]

One thing I like about Pro Tools is the zero latency on RTAS plug-ins. There are probably a greater number of plug-ins available for Logic (and they all seem very high quality) but last I checked, each plug-in added latency to each audio track it was applied to (and always in a random and unpredictable way that's difficult to compensate for).

No such thing as zero latency. Pro Tools has its share of latency issues just as any other DAW.

 

[ballison]

logic is definately my program of choice, even if it is a bit hard to learn at first, but the manual is very very helpful. the plugins in logic are absolutely amazing, as are the softsynths available. if you get logic, you are pretty much set with plugins and synths