Double Bass I am curious, why don't more people play 5 string upright?

[bassfacer22]

I may be a little late on this thread but if it's still alive, just wanted to throw out there that you might as well make the move over to the 5-string.. You will enjoy the instrument more because what do you get with a 5th string? more bass! isn't that what we play!? (the fifth string is a low-B, not the High-C )

Who doesn't want more bass? lower notes? if you want higher notes, play Cello/violin!

The neck and bridge, everything, can be whatever you need it to be..

I am so waiting for the right full 5-string bass for me to buy. I actually am in talks with a luthier about converting my upright Carbon Fiber 4-string bass to a 5-string! the Luthier told me he would have to glue extra wood to the fingerboard and make a new hole for the extra peg! ha.

anyway 5-string is better because it solely allows you to have more range..

Video-
I know it's only an electric upright but still.. you can solo no problem on a 5-string.. and get around.

(well pizz anyway.)

 

[bassfacer22]

This was meant to be a joke guys.. but here, a 5-string!

anybody who says 5-strings are more difficult to play..

and yes, I could do the same thing on a full-size Upright 5-string..

 

[panormista]

I bought a new Shen from Beerman's shop and am very happy with it. I went to the shop, spent about two hours testing it and others. Bob Beerman actually suggested that a 4-string with extensions would be more practical. I tried it and didn't like it at all. I really love having that low B string. The shop set it up perfectly, as nearly as I can tell.

When you need the low D, it's one string over from where the G is. I am strictly an amateur (and will never be much better), but I play much of the bass parts in an orchestra. I love it when I get to play the low C, or D, or E-flat the some of the Classical and modern composers call for. It helps, I suppose, that I am used to playing a 7-string viola da gamba. And I'm not very good at playing an octave higher than it's written. I admit that I occasionally grab the wrong string, but not that often. It is a 7/8 and heavier than other basses I play, but I really like being able to get those low bass notes easily.

FWIW, I made the switch to 5-string a year ago (orchestral playing), and I love it. I bought a 5-string Shen from Bob Beerman's shop, and the setup was absolutely on-point (which, as has been noted, is critical).

In terms of the neck, I've tried several 5-stringers with necks that felt cumbersome and disorienting in terms of muscle memory; however, there's something about the neck geometry of my bass that makes it feel more like a four string bass. I don't know exactly what it is; perhaps the ratio of thickness to width(?), but it feels great, and I've found the change to be really easy. (The only time I've felt disoriented has been during some pizz passages where I lose track of which string the right hand is trying to find. Some easy technique mods have helped to solve that issue.)

For me, it feels more natural to play the low end on the 5th string, rather than trying to fumble around with capos. The right string choice is important, too. I don't think I've seen many 5-stringers that have a complete matched set top-to-bottom. My bass is wearing Belcantos on the top three, matched with Helicore orchestrals on the bottom two. The bass has a nice big voice in the section.

In terms of solo playing, it isn't out of the question. Andy Anderson plays five-stringers and manages to get around quite well. And don't forget about Renaud Garcia Fons.

 

[bassfacer22]

but I really like being able to get those low bass notes

Amen

 

[MarkWHolbrook]

I play a 5 string Brescian from Upton bass in the local symphony. Other players have extensions including one 5 stringer with an extension and a high C string. Some early classical and baroque music only had cello parts and the bass part was added later just doubling the cello part. With the cello low note being a C, a low B string is perfect playing this low. My 5 string confuses my teacher a bit when he tries to play it but since I came to double bass from a 5 string slab it was second nature to me. To each his own but I'll take a 5er over an extension.

 

[eerbrev]

Like Mark, I also play an Upton Brescian 5er. I've been playing it steady for... three years now? I got it in my masters.

All through undergrad i had colleagues with extensions. I would try their basses and the extension felt really off to me. I found it very difficult to use, and I didn't like the way the closed E capo sounded in comparison to open strings. Now, that being said, most of them were not "great" extensions (save for one which was a Lamarre, which I still disliked). I also found the Cs exclusively sharp. not horrendously so, not enough to ruin your night, but not pitch on correct. Either the C was in tune, or the E was in tune - make your choice.

However, in the course of looking for a bass and eventually deciding to commission, I've played some five strings that were *HATEFUL*. Just awful. Hard to play, overbuilt, quiet, gigantic necks. I can see why someone would hesitate to buy a 5er if they ever encountered one. I also found some really great sounding, but impractical ones (there was a 5/4 bass at the Cincinnati Bass Cellar that sounded amazing, but you could barely hit the octave G without going into thumb position), and some well playing, but not good sounding ones (too small of a body, or strings too close together). Indeed, even when I first got my bass from Upton I ended up having to get the string spacing increased and arching adjusted to make string crossings and bowing easier - You learn what you need the more you play.

I would wholeheartedly recommend a five string for a lot of reasons, but I also acknowledge they're not for everyone. The nice thing about extensions is that if you already have a bass you love, you can just add a few more notes. If you're in a section of fine old Italian instruments and they want you to get one too (I've heard of it), getting a five string is probably an impossibility even though those "fine old Italian Four strings" didn't have four strings originally either, they usually had three. Unless they're Maggini old, then they might have had 5-6.

It's funny, actually, as a side note. Doug Balliett (an early bass guy) did a lecture on Dragonetti and the three string bass once, and he talks about someone asking him about 3 vs 4 strings.



What I find interesting is that the argument Dragonetti makes is the same a lot of 4 string bassists make regarding 5 strings - That the sound is better with less strings. And it is! 3 string basses sound great - I know, i have and use one. Of course, he was dealing with strings tech that was a lot less good, and considering the advances of strings since the 1950s when steel became the "thing" to use, I'd say we're at a point where having a 5 string that sounds great and plays as great as a four string is achievable.

 

[lurk]

Sorry to be a contrarian, but most 5 stringers just don't vibrate as freely with that extra pressure/weight on the top. Yes, I do choose to use a 4 string rather than a 3, so we all make compromises.

 

[eerbrev]

Sorry to be a contrarian, but most 5 stringers just don't vibrate as freely with that extra pressure/weight on the top. Yes, I do choose to use a 4 string rather than a 3, so we all make compromises.

I mean, how many five string basses have you played? And within that question, how many of those five string basses had a reduced vibration that was so bad it made the bass unusable, or even undesirable?

It's easy to say "most x are y". I've played 6-8 five strings, most of which during my search for purchase. Unless someone is making it their business to play many fivers, i doubt they've played more (maybe if you're playing in a 5 string european section and you all switch basses on occasion?). Only maybe one bass I've played was just straight up unusable, and it was a Kay Chubby Jackson 5 with a low B instead of the correct high C. Most basses for sale at a "professional" price level aren't going to be so hindered by their fifth string as to make them a non-competitor in an audition, for example.

It's just like anything though, you need to find a bass that works for you. Mine is a 5.

 

[Jeff Roller]

Bought the only fiver I could find, never looked back.

 

[Jeff Roller]

One of the stumbling blocks for usage in the states is the problem of availability / learning curve. If you want a fiver in the states, they're not terribly easy to find and advanced four-stringers are a little apprehensive about making the switch. I special ordered my first one (a beautiful Christopher Hybrid with Bussetto corners) and traded it in for my current bass.
Set up can be challenging for luthiers who aren't used to working on them (for example: getting the bridge/fingerboard curve dialed in for arco playing is really critical).

I may have wound up with your Christopher Hybrid with Bussetto corners.....unless there were more than one made......

 

[basspraiser]

Bought the only fiver I could find, never looked back.
View attachment 1092150

Ok... Have to ask... What is that and how much was it??? It's gorgeous.

PM me please.. Thanks

 

[robobass]

I didn't like the way the closed E capo sounded in comparison to open strings. Now, that being said, most of them were not "great" extensions .....
I also found the Cs exclusively sharp. not horrendously so, not enough to ruin your night, but not pitch on correct. Either the C was in tune, or the E was in tune - make your choice.

Both of these things are symptoms only of bad luthiery, not extensions themselves. Beyond that, I agree. Extensions are harder to play, but Fivers rarely sound as good as Fourers(?). "You make your choice" is the last word on this

 

[PaulCannon]

I mean, how many five string basses have you played? And within that question, how many of those five string basses had a reduced vibration that was so bad it made the bass unusable, or even undesirable?

It's easy to say "most x are y". I've played 6-8 five strings, most of which during my search for purchase. Unless someone is making it their business to play many fivers, i doubt they've played more (maybe if you're playing in a 5 string european section and you all switch basses on occasion?). Only maybe one bass I've played was just straight up unusable, and it was a Kay Chubby Jackson 5 with a low B instead of the correct high C. Most basses for sale at a "professional" price level aren't going to be so hindered by their fifth string as to make them a non-competitor in an audition, for example.

I've played on a lot. There's more than ten just at my office, and I've tried many more gigging around Germany and Austria.

Very few of them were useless, but none of them were better than my favorite four string basses. There is a kind of "damped" quality to every five string bass I've tried, but it's often so slight that I don't really mind. There's also the issue of set-up, which is traditionally very different here from my own preferences. I love the idea of a five string bass, but I'm still waiting to be completely convinced by one.

 

[ejnachtrab]

Hey Paul, I'd love to hear how the traditional German set up differs from bass set up in the states. Also, there is a great interview with Matthew McDonald on Contrabass conversations where he talks about adjusting to the huge fivers in the Berlin Phil. Cheers.

 

[robobass]

The only Fiver I have played extensively was a Pöllmann Busetto which I used for six years in a German orchestra. Short string length but very deep ribs. Setup? I found the fingerboard about as perfect as I could wish for. Ditto for string height. In this I think the Germans are if anything ahead of Americans, at least in the top shops. That bass was really easy to play, except when it came to getting a true FF, which took incredible muscle. I don't think it's so much a setup issue, but a build issue, though. When the top is that thick, I feel like you can move the soundpost around, or even toss it in the bin, and it won't make much difference

 

[Whippet]

After reading all these posts for the last 4 weeks, I am having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 5 string MK Classic.

I come from a 5 string electric bass and I am so used to having that B string I don't think I could live without it. But all your stories make me wonder....... about the chunky neck as many of you state and also what some state about the mass of the neck and overall beefy build having a negative effect on the tone. Paul Warburton's neck is awesome but so is the price and I have yet to see one like it.

It is total gamble since I don't know of anyone with a MK 5 string Classic. The 4 strings sound good but as all of you state, it's a totally different animal or should I say ''beast'' because of the unfriendly nature it could unleash. Sounding damped, hard to set up, hard to play, hard to sound good, etc etc etc. Seriously, I might have psychological problems to want to play something so difficult. But wait.... upright is just difficult right from start to the never ending goal right? LOL

dang.... I wish someone would just perfect the 5 string so none of us have to ever discuss this stuff..... LOL like someone has already perfected the 4 string upright. I could be waiting for 10 life times for any of this to happen.

 

[PaulCannon]

Hey Paul, I'd love to hear how the traditional German set up differs from bass set up in the states. Also, there is a great interview with Matthew McDonald on Contrabass conversations where he talks about adjusting to the huge fivers in the Berlin Phil. Cheers.

The biggest difference is string height, and the absence of bridge adjusters. German five string basses are traditionally set very high (15mm or more). The Austrians are even more extreme. They also tend to put much more camber in the fingerboard, so you can forget about playing in thumb position. I think that partly explains why German students exclusively study in solo tuning (with lowered string height), and why orchestra bassists generally use much more bow.

The only Fiver I have played extensively was a Pöllmann Busetto which I used for six years in a German orchestra. Short string length but very deep ribs. Setup? I found the fingerboard about as perfect as I could wish for. Ditto for string height. In this I think the Germans are if anything ahead of Americans, at least in the top shops.

The best set-ups I know come from Robertsons and Arnold Schnitzer. I've been very disappointed with most German shops so far. But you probably know more about that than me.

 

[robobass]

Sadly, yes

 

[robobass]

The biggest difference is string height, and the absence of bridge adjusters. German five string basses are traditionally set very high (15mm or more). The Austrians are even more extreme. They also tend to put much more camber in the fingerboard, so you can forget about playing in thumb position. I think that partly explains why German students exclusively study in solo tuning (with lowered string height), and why orchestra bassists generally use much more bow.

The best set-ups I know come from Robertsons and Arnold Schnitzer. I've been very disappointed with most German shops so far. But you probably know more about that than me.

Paul,
I haven't experienced the string height or camber issues you describe on active orchestra basses, but, yes, you see a lot of top repairers still with the mindset of what we consider today to be quite excessive camber, and I absolutely don't challenge your claims of what you have seen, especially in Austria As far as orchestra bassists using more bow, however, I think it's for a different reason. Like I said, The tops of many of these Fivers are so thick, that the only way to get a big Forte is either to play about an inch from the bridge, with as much pressure as humanly possible, or (more common), to play tasto but with extreme bow speed, which IMO produces a terrible sound.

 

[csrund]

FWIW, here are a couple of pics of the Shen I bought from Bob Beerman's shop last year that show the setup, which I find to be just about perfect. (I raised the bass-side bridge adjuster a couple of millimeters. Also put Helicore low-tension orch. strings on the B and E side, replacing the Spiro and Belcanto, respectively; this made an enormous difference.)



Indianapolis assistant principal Bob Goodlett plays a vintage Pöllmann 5-string and worked diligently with luthier Kevin Flannery of Grand Rapids, Michigan to get his setup dialed in. (Invalid Link Removed) Bob has gotten the local Indianapolis luthiers at Encore Strings to adopt the "Flannery setup" as the de facto for the 5-string players in our neck of the woods. That same shop has sold a handful of Jay Haide 5-stringers in the last couple of years (including one to my section mate), which seems to reflect a surge in interest for five-stringers.

From my perspective, I've been enjoying it immensely and don't feel like I've had to sacrifice any quality of tone or playability. (I wouldn't be enjoying it if that weren't the case).

Really enjoying this thread!