Double Bass I am curious, why don't more people play 5 string upright?

[MarkWHolbrook]

I did an experiment with my Upton 5 string. When changing the strings to some D'Adarrio Helicore lights my trusty Sprio B broke. So I put 4 new strings on, let them settle in a bit and played a bit while monitoring the sound with a frequency analyser and a SPL meter. Then added the Helicore B and played again. Short story is that the total volume was very similar and the frequencies didn't change noticeably. I made a video of the results I'll post when I have time. This of course is one bass with one setup. Your mileage will vary.

 

[etorgerson]

With regards to the earlier posts about Euro orchestras going all fivers, anyone know anything about the extent of the new Dutch school playing four in CGDA? I'm trying it on a borrowed bass, but am far from sold on it.
As to muted fivers- I just read Traeger's last book and he discusses the sideways motion of the neck and string spacing- as a fiver would have a wider cable structure, it is stiffer laterally, like a radio tower limiting motion in the same plane as the sideways vibration of the strings. His experiments showed that narrower spacing opened up basses that he worked on.
I too am on the verge of getting an extension and have been messing around with fifths tuning with spiro weichs.
This discussion is reinforcing that decision as I am pressed to find the $$ for a good fiver. I also am a doubler on violin and viola, so do not play bass daily, though I do play community orchestras, opera, and musicals. With smallish hands, I'm hesitant about playing the low b cable on a wider board. I am also used to the feel of Eva weichs and have found they allow me to play for hours without the pain and fatigue I have had with other strings. My thought is that an extended e/c would preserve the string diameter, especially as I like the sound of the e string at the heel and often play there.

I am still a little concerned about fingering on the extension. How awkward is it? I usually use Rabbath style pivoting to reach +/- a semitones and use four fingers fairly often despite my Simandl upbringing. I assume four fingers would be out, but how about pivoting and shifting back and forth from the extension?

 

[VictorW126]

In reality, there are no problems. My fiver has a wider and deeper neck so that the stringspace turns out to be even larger than on my 4-bass. But this also means that the GDAE-strings are in a more comfortable position for the left hand. I do not have big hands, not flexible fingers and I do not have daily activities (I'm not a professional bass player). But I can play a three-hour set on 5-str as well as on 4. I'm more concerned about the feedback problem in small clubs, because there's one more string that also has the strongest feedback.

Orchestra musicians play (on 5-str) for hours and rehearse daily. If it was difficult - five-stringers died out at natural selection.

 

[Bisounourse]

With regards to the earlier posts about Euro orchestras going all fivers, anyone know anything about the extent of the new Dutch school playing four in CGDA? I'm trying it on a borrowed bass, but am far from sold on it.

I've sent you a PM with contact info of one of the bassplayers for the Rotterdam Philharmonic.

 

[Phil Smith]

I've been playing a 5 string that I had newly built in July of 2016 in an orchestra context. At first it took some getting used to, very disorienting with the extra string but that goes away pretty quickly. About a month after I got it, I went to a rehearsal only to discover another bassist with a 5 string, quite the rare occurrence in NYC. Overall I'm pleased with it and prefer it over a bass with an extension any day. I personally think a bassist that has only played a 4 string double bass but plays an extended range BG will be more productive on a 5 string DB than a 4 string with an extension.

 

[LouisF]

Phil,

Could you tell us who built the 5-string for you? Thanks
Louis

 

[Phil Smith]

Phil,

Could you tell us who built the 5-string for you? Thanks
Louis

I got it from the same Chinese factory that I believe you got yours from, Neolson.

 

[LouisF]

They make very good basses for the money! Congrats.

 

[bengreen]

With smallish hands, I'm hesitant about playing the low b cable on a wider board.

I'd love to tell you that it doesn't matter, but I find I do feel more tension as I arch my wrist more to get at that string. The thing is, you don't normally spend all that much time down there. If we're doing something like Brahm's Requiem where we're holding that low D long and loud for like half a movement, I'll rotate the bass counter-clockwise slightly to ease the wrist and keep the bow from banging into my knees.

My fiver has a wider and deeper neck so that the stringspace turns out to be even larger than on my 4-bass. But this also means that the GDAE-strings are in a more comfortable position for the left hand

It's weird, I was totally on board with that idea until just last summer. I had wide spacing on both of my 5-strings and considered it a necessity that facilitated my playing. I had even rejected a pretty decent bass that had played in the Minnesota Orchestra because of it's narrow spacing that I wasn't prepared to deal with then. Fast forward 20 years, when a friend was converting his bass from 4 to 5 and told me the width of the fingerboard he had to work with, I told him it would never work. String spacing way too narrow, double stop city. Luckily he listened to Arnold Schnitzer instead of me. The result was the most comfortable 5 string I've ever played and no trouble leaning into it for more sound. I think whether it works or not has more to do with the overall geometry (arches of nut, fingerboard, bridge, all in relation to C bouts) than any hard fast numbers about minimum spacing.

 

[etorgerson]

Your friend who converted the four to five, have you noticed a change in the resonance or general sound of the instrument? Given that three strings often sound more resonant and open than four, is it more closed sounding?

What changes were made in order to deal with the extra tension of a B string, or did they go to a high c?

 

[bengreen]

Your friend who converted the four to five, have you noticed a change in the resonance or general sound of the instrument? Given that three strings often sound more resonant and open than four, is it more closed sounding?

What changes were made in order to deal with the extra tension of a B string, or did they go to a high c?

I hadn't played it before.

Rats! Sorry now I didn't do that. Especially since we had corresponded before the workshop to discuss plans and it is a question that interests me.

Only excuse I can think for missing such an opportunity was I was pretty miserable physically that week and had my own project going three steps back for every step forward to preoccupy me.

Oh well. I'll try to reach him and see if he wants to answer that question.

I don't think he did anything aside from plugging the two holes on the side of his pegbox and redrilling for three machines and cutting a new nut. If memory serves me right (not a foregone conclusion nowadays) he reused the original bridge and tailpiece, just renotching the one and drilling an extra hole in the other.

After the conversion it sounded lovely and resonant to me. But again I can't make a comparison.

 

[Whippet]

I finally found a bass in Japan (where I live from time to time) with a 5 string with a 4 cm nut width.

This is an house product by Kurosawa Gakki called Del Sole.
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Long story short the pitch is 9mm between the strings at the nut.

To compensate for the extra tension, the ebony fingerboard is at least 1cm thick. Apparently this gives it the strength needed to make it more rigid and the integrity of the tone is supposedly not corrupted.

The bass is supposedly carved. Don't know if they mean carved top or back or both. Soft case included. Made in Romania

The guys told me that in the price range of about 4500 USD, the only one they have in the store is an Oriente 45, which the guy told me is not as good as the Del Sole.

I'll be back in about 5-6 months so I will go see for it myself.

Could any one of you tell me if this 1 cm thick ebony fingerboard story is indeed correct? Unlike a bass guitar, does this fingerboard carry so much weight in the tone? I would think the neck is more a concern than the fingerboard.

After doing some research, there is no bass like the one that Paul Warburton has and if it did exist, it's out of my price range. So far this in house thing is as best as I can find. Obviously I don't know if the tone will be good or not till I actually hear it, so I can't comment on this part. I'm not asking for a 20,000 dollar tone out of a 4500 dollar bass but I lean towards a 5 string after all the posts and this one might be my answer.

 

[VictorW126]

Could any one of you tell me if this 1 cm thick ebony fingerboard story is indeed correct? Unlike a bass guitar, does this fingerboard carry so much weight in the tone? I would think the neck is more a concern than the fingerboard.

It seems true.
If necessary, I can measure my 5-er 7/8 bass. Its fingerboard is of a large thickness. As a result of long storage without strings, the neck even arched in the opposite direction. This gives me the confidence that he will withstand a strong pull and give a great tone.

 

[Whippet]

It seems true.
If necessary, I can measure my 5-er 7/8 bass. Its fingerboard is of a large thickness. As a result of long storage without strings, the neck even arched in the opposite direction. This gives me the confidence that he will withstand a strong pull and give a great tone.

Thanks for the information. Now that I look at my electric and see that the fret board is less than half a centimeter, I can see that more than a centimeter will have an effect on the tone and strength.

I am just going to have to look into this bass when I get back to Japan in about half a year.

 

[7615]

For what it's worth, I feel the same way about electric bass. I don't have a 5, never found one I liked, never ever thought "this song really needs a nice flappy, grainy farty low B right now". I like the agility and speed around a 4 string neck, and the extra range simply doesn't compensate for the loss of that. If you don't believe me, ask Jeff Berlin. In his words "there's nothing worth playing that can't be played on a 4 string"

Neil

My experience as well. I used to D tune for D songs - but not anymore. Only tune the whole bass down a half step if guitarist announces he tunes in Eb. Thumpy unclear tone good for pedal tones- just such a limited use. I would like a 5 string for those few time the classical repertoire calls for it - but that's quite an expense for limited use.

 

[Whippet]

My experience as well. I used to D tune for D songs - but not anymore. Only tune the whole bass down a half step if guitarist announces he tunes in Eb. Thumpy unclear tone good for pedal tones- just such a limited use. I would like a 5 string for those few time the classical repertoire calls for it - but that's quite an expense for limited use.

I was wondering would you ever consider using the 5th fret E on the B string to say the 9-10th fret on the B?

On the electric bass, I constantly do this when doing walking basslines as it makes it much easier to navigate through the scales with minimal arm movement.

My teacher has told me to stick to the 5th and above for most cases and use open strings since it is in tune and you can measure it against the other notes when you start out. I understand and do what he says, but if you can intonate correctly, would this be an option for you? or is the tone too corrupted for most upright players?

 

[7615]

My experience as well. I used to D tune for D songs - but not anymore. Only tune the whole bass down a half step if guitarist announces he tunes in Eb. Thumpy unclear tone good for pedal tones- just such a limited use.

I was wondering would you ever consider using the 5th fret E on the B string to say the 9-10th fret on the B?

On the electric bass, I constantly do this when doing walking basslines as it makes it much easier to navigate through the scales with minimal arm movement.

My teacher has told me to stick to the 5th and above for most cases and use open strings since it is in tune and you can measure it against the other notes when you start out. I understand and do what he says, but if you can intonate correctly, would this be an option for you? or is the tone too corrupted for most upright players?

Actually that is I think the primary use of the B on an electric. On upright playin up the E has a much different color - in a fast passage it might be required but the colour of the sound really is much different so I avoid if possible. I only use those notes up the E for the different tone on long notes. The E at the octave is a much different tone than the E on the D 2nd position. I don’t have enough experience on 5 string upright but the few I have tried it doesn’t seem the B responds well enough and like electric a longer scale seems best - however on DB longer than 41” for me is uncomfortable .

 

[martinez]

I was wondering would you ever consider using the 5th fret E on the B string to say the 9-10th fret on the B?

On the electric bass, I constantly do this when doing walking basslines as it makes it much easier to navigate through the scales with minimal arm movement.

My teacher has told me to stick to the 5th and above for most cases and use open strings since it is in tune and you can measure it against the other notes when you start out. I understand and do what he says, but if you can intonate correctly, would this be an option for you? or is the tone too corrupted for most upright players?

I play a 5-string in a mostly orchestral context. Occasionally I will play e, f, f#, g on the low b string if I want a different tonal color. I also love the flexibility of being able to vibrate the low e by playing it closed on the b string rather than using an open string.

 

[Whippet]

I play a 5-string in a mostly orchestral context. Occasionally I will play e, f, f#, g on the low b string if I want a different tonal color. I also love the flexibility of being able to vibrate the low e by playing it closed on the b string rather than using an open string.

I hardly ever used the open strings on the electric and I am having to learn to use it, despite my EUB being a 6 string.

I have problems with doing octaves without resonating adjacent strings when I play open strings, even when I try to mute it. Open low E and high E on the third is a real pain in the butt and I get a more consistent tone using the E on the B string. I am still trying to figure out my hand / palm placement and the instrument angle to perfect the open low E and the high E. I literally have to use my entire thumb to mute B and the E string. I figure both methods of playing are necessary but walking bass line on the EUB is so much easier when I use the E to A on the B string. Chords are so much easier to connect.

I am just really curious how other people use the B string. The NS EU6 is more like a giant fretless electric bass so it is different than a conventional upright but I just wonder just how useful it is on a regular basis.

 

[CayGee]

I finally found a bass in Japan (where I live from time to time) with a 5 string with a 4 cm nut width.

This is an house product by Kurosawa Gakki called Del Sole.
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I wanted to check out the Del Sole but the link seems to be broken?