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:( I get no credit.
- Thread starter Tym2cu_bass
- Start date
Ahhh... Thanks for pointing that out. Im not sure where I thought I read 165.Leinad said:
My mistake indeed, you are in no way fat.
Mike Money
In Memoriam
Thats a very ignorant perspective and one I wish I could change. I suggest you do some reading on the topic because your anecdotal evidence is far from clinical. In fact, 100 years of empirical data says the complete opposite. While I acknowledge that drugs have worked for you, truthbeknown, they aren't anywhere near as effective as people think they are, nor as effective as therapy for that matter. There is a very large placebo effect in any medication and with your obvious resistance to therapy, it would never have worked for you. Just a few more things to note: (a) drugs are more expensive in the long run than therapy, (b) all drugs have some side effects and (c) drugs are only ever a temporary solution to a problem that can be solved, not just avoided, in therapy.Ericman197 said:Most of them are placebos? Haha, what?
With regards to the therapy vs. drugs argument... applying yourself has little to do with it. If you have what I would call a "fake problem," meaning you just need to talk about it, then therapy may be helpful. As I see it, a psychologist is to a psychiatrist as a chiropractor is to an orthopedist
As for your psychologist versus psychiatrist comment, I think that you're more than little confused on what the difference is between them. In case you weren't aware, psychiatry involves the talking cures. It goes without saying that Freud himself was a psychiatrist. Did he treat his patients with drugs? I think not. Psychoanalysis has become a reasonably unpopular treatment is because of the work of psychologists. That you should be thankful for, or else I'd say your self-esteem issues causing you to require drugs were because you couldn't have sex with your mother.
The only reason that drugs are given over counselling is because of health insurance companies. Oh, and the fact that society has become so chaotic that people don't have time to sit down and talk things through anymore. Take a pill, you'll feel alright. Just don't stop or you'll fall apart. There's a great solution.
Its very interesting that you should say that then discredit talking about your issues and having people there to support you. Some people don't have friends or family who are emotionally supportive. Would you continue to say "toughen up" to them, despite you needing others around you? I think this exemplifies your lack of understanding of what counselling therapist (whether psychiatrist or psychologist) is there to do.Ericman197 said:
I'm glad to see that medication has assisted you but to generalise that to say that drugs work and therapy doesn't is completely absurd. If drugs truly were the solution, then you wouldn't have needed anyone around you to help you through. You could have taken the medication, been a complete hermit and still lived a happy existence. But your own account made it clear that having people around to support you was imperative to becoming well.
Leigh
I was the exact same way in H.S., but, I played Bari Sax rather than T-bone! Anyway...I put up with it for two years, then I just ignored it and drew myself into my music, and now in College I started over again, and am very happy with everything.
Just some advice,
Ray
Just some advice,
Ray
khay0s said:Thats a very ignorant perspective and one I wish I could change. I suggest you do some reading on the topic because your anecdotal evidence is far from clinical. In fact, 100 years of empirical data says the complete opposite. While I acknowledge that drugs have worked for you, truthbeknown, they aren't anywhere near as effective as people think they are, nor as effective as therapy for that matter. There is a very large placebo effect in any medication and with your obvious resistance to therapy, it would never have worked for you. Just a few more things to note: (a) drugs are more expensive in the long run than therapy, (b) all drugs have some side effects and (c) drugs are only ever a temporary solution to a problem that can be solved, not just avoided, in therapy.
As for your psychologist versus psychiatrist comment, I think that you're more than little confused on what the difference is between them. In case you weren't aware, psychiatry involves the talking cures. It goes without saying that Freud himself was a psychiatrist. Did he treat his patients with drugs? I think not. Psychoanalysis has become a reasonably unpopular treatment is because of the work of psychologists. That you should be thankful for, or else I'd say your self-esteem issues causing you to require drugs were because you couldn't have sex with your mother.
The only reason that drugs are given over counselling is because of health insurance companies. Oh, and the fact that society has become so chaotic that people don't have time to sit down and talk things through anymore. Take a pill, you'll feel alright. Just don't stop or you'll fall apart. There's a great solution.
Its very interesting that you should say that then discredit talking about your issues and having people there to support you. Some people don't have friends or family who are emotionally supportive. Would you continue to say "toughen up" to them, despite you needing others around you? I think this exemplifies your lack of understanding of what counselling therapist (whether psychiatrist or psychologist) is there to do.
I'm glad to see that medication has assisted you but to generalise that to say that drugs work and therapy doesn't is completely absurd. If drugs truly were the solution, then you wouldn't have needed anyone around you to help you through. You could have taken the medication, been a complete hermit and still lived a happy existence. But your own account made it clear that having people around to support you was imperative to becoming well.
Leigh
Are drugs more expensive than therapy? Maybe, I've never really taken that into consideration, nor do I really care about that aspect.
Do all drugs have side effects? Hmmm, I'm not so sure about that, but I can look into it. I haven't noticed any side effects from taking Effexor.
I would argue the opposite. How are drugs only a temporary solution? You can take them forever if you wanted to. My grandmother also gets depressed; therapy is and was useless for her, but Remeron cured her 100%.
I know the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist and I think my analogy is quite fitting
Will someone "fall apart" if they stop taking their medications? In most cases, yes. I've been there. The difference is that while drugs will help cure the problem at its root, therapy ignores it. Of course, this argument branches into the old science vs. religion/whatever argument. I believe that depression is a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain.
While my friends did help me through the process, I would say that most of it was due to medications. The help which I received from my friends was primarilly to get me "back into the world" so to say once I started feeling better.
Of course, I have a very different perspective on this than most people would. I get most of my information from my mother, who is a firm believer in psychiatry. Although she was a psych major in college, she tends to believe more in the hard sciences ( Neurology ) than anything else.
There are your two mistakes. How can you say that biology is responsible for a person being teased and having low self-esteem? Thats like me punching someone, breaking their nose and saying that it was because of their genetics that their nose broke. Similarly, I have no time for anyone who can claim that psychiatry is hard science and psychology isn't. For psychiatry's sake, you'd better hope thats wrong. The fact is that psychiatry and psychology overlap so much that to discreit one is to discredit the other.Ericman197 said:
Drugs are only only a band-aid cure. They don't fix anything. You're confusing a few things here - you're thinking that all mental problems are biological problems. Some are, but the majority aren't. As I've said before, if everything was related to chemical imbalances, as opposed to faulty cognition, then there simply would no need for counselling and data would suggest that. I certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to be supporting something without empirical support - I'm a very big skeptic.
You're also implying that psychologists aren't involved with drug work, which is simply not the case either. You seem to view psychology and psychiatry as two opposing fields instead of two slightly different perspectives treating the same problem.
There's something in psychology called the availability heuristic, which means that you draw to mind things which are salient to you. In this case, when looking for a battle of drugs vs counselling, you look at yourself and your grandmother. Do you see something in common here? Perhaps your family has a genetic component to imbalances, but how does that translate into anyone else being that way? For every case of yours supporting the use of drugs, I can give you examples in which drugs were useless and therapy 100% succesful, but there'd be no point. Either can be very effective, but therapy is cheaper and has absolutely no side effects. Therapy is able to cure what drugs only inhibit.
Oh, and neither your analogy nor your comment on "fake" illnesses are accurate. I'll be happy to continue this debate once you've read up on what psychology and psychiatry are and what they involve. Your opinion is founded upon a few anecdotal incidents in your life and from your mother's word. I'm sorry but I have to say that I trust decades of empirial support more than you or your mothers thoughts.
Leigh
khay0s said:
But my mother is very qualified
It's not so much that I believe that psychiatry and psychology are completely different; they aren't. The most significant difference is in the qualifications. A psychologist has a PHD whereas a psychiatrist has an MD. This accounts for a number of differences between the two field. One degree is easier to attain and is based more on conjecture ( in my opinion ), and the other is more difficult to acquire and more science based.I don't see how drugs don't cure anything. They cure a chemical imbalance, assuming one is present. That's all you really need. Of course, an SNRI isn't going to cure a form of depression that isn't related to imbalances of serotonin and/or norepinephrine, but if there is no chemical imbalance whatsoever, I wouldn't consider it a form of medical depression.
As for this kid's problem, I can't say for certain what's wrong with him, but chemical depression is a possibilty. People naturally tease and take advantage of those who they see as weak. If he is depressed, then his condition is more than likely the cause of his being picked on.
khay0s said:
Also, in support of this, I have something to say. You have said that when some people stop taking their medications, they (sometimes) fall apart. Well, in what way is that a cure?Curing the problem would eventually result in the need for the medication to be eliminated.
Also, for a lot of people, drugs are the escape. They just don't feel the pain, or depression, or whatever ails them when they take the drugs. But then they are not facing the problem, they are turning away in a sense. I am not saying drugs are ineffective, don't get me wrong. But when they take the drugs just to not feel the hurt, that is running away. Unfortunately, a lot of people use the drugs in this way.
It's like using novicaine for dental surgery. It numbs things, but when it wears off, the pain will still be there, but it will go away. Though you don't deal with physical pain in the same way as emotional pain, the principle is nearly the same.
What you need to realize is that drugs are not 100% effective for everybody. Neither is therapy. But in either case, it takes effort from the sufferer to take action to find away through the depression. Most of the people I have known with depression problems could deal with it by thinking a bit differently. They could deal with things easier if they just had some support. They could deal with things better if they had someone to help them to point out (in a kind and loving way) the problems that they need to be dealing with. Most times, someone dealing with depression cannot see the forest for the trees, as they say. They cannot see their world and how to get around in it because this one problem blocks their entire view.
With regard again to the drugs, there is no drug out there that doesn't have some side effects. They may be miniscule, but there are always side effects. (Please correct me if I am wrong) Even with something as benign as aspirin, it still has side effects. One such side effect is the thinning of the blood. Here is some information on that drug: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] These side effects don't happen to everyone, but they do happen.
As far as depression being caused by chemical imbalance, yes, that can be a cause. But a lot of times it isn't caused by anything like that. Humans are emotive creatures, let's face it. There have been times when I just had bad days, weeks, months, or even years. I have been, at times, so angry that I cut on myself. But today, I am a reasonably stable and functioning member of society. I found that my faith offered me great stability and peace in even the worst of situations. But different strokes for different folks. Some people find that a hobby will allow them time to think and sort out their feelings. There is no need to medicate in such situations. If medication works for you, that is great, but you need to look at the true root of the problem. Was it that your father was not there? Was it a tragedy in the family? Drugs will seem to make you feel better, but most times they only push away the bad feelings and allow people to really work through whats going on without feeling so hopeless.
I hope that you think a bit more before you apply such general situations and terms in such a complex field which involves a lot more than what you may realize. I don't to offend, or to insult, but I want only to enlighten you. I have been down the path of depression and even have a family history if mental instabilities, as well as relatives who deal with depression with medication. I have 3 aunts that are nurses, and a wife in the nursing program, so I absorb a lot of information on such subject, but I don't claim to be any authority. I just know what many years of empirical data show. And also seeing the experience first hand in my own life has helped me to realize the difficulty of dperession.
FUNKonthewall
Nailing The Groove
- Sep 29, 2004
- 341
- 36
- Disclosures
- Endorsing: Fodera Guitars, Aguilar Amps, Dunlop/MXR, Earthquaker Devices, Focusrite
Hey man.
I know how you feel. I'm a very submissive, quiet, and lonely person and I was treated the same way for my first couple years of HS. I'm 17 and a senior now ('05
) and I know how much it sucks to be picked on. I used to play trumpet and it sucked because I didn't practice and I hated it. I was just another band nerd who got picked on and it sucked. It really messed me up for good in terms of self esteem and such and sent me into depression. I stayed at home and just sat in my room and practiced bass, thinking that, one day, I would be laughing at everyone else.
I was put in our school's jazz band for bass because of a schedule mishap (and I even ended up going all the way to China because of this mishap, but that's a different story) and everyone, including our band director, who is the biggest @$$hole anyone will ever meet, was kind of like, "Oh man. Here comes Ryan." But one day, we we're playing "I Wish" by Stevie Wonder and Hutch (our term for our director) gave me a solo to try and put me in my place and I smoked him. I threw in the whole kit and kaboodle. Fingerstyle, slapping and tapping.
I currently hold the title of "best soloist" in the jazz band only because I worked up enough strength to face Hutch and all of his crap. I even got to play "Portrait of Tracy" as a solo at the Savannah Jazz Festival. Everyone at the school respects me because I showed them something they hadn't seen before. So my advice to you is this: show your classmates something that will blow them away. You can even take a couple of months to work on only one piece, but just learn something that will floor them. Do something on your trombone (or bass, or any instrument) that none of them have seen before and you've got them by the throat.
You might even get more respect than you expected. Some of the kids at my school actually think I invented slapping. Crazy, huh?
I know how you feel. I'm a very submissive, quiet, and lonely person and I was treated the same way for my first couple years of HS. I'm 17 and a senior now ('05
) and I know how much it sucks to be picked on. I used to play trumpet and it sucked because I didn't practice and I hated it. I was just another band nerd who got picked on and it sucked. It really messed me up for good in terms of self esteem and such and sent me into depression. I stayed at home and just sat in my room and practiced bass, thinking that, one day, I would be laughing at everyone else.I was put in our school's jazz band for bass because of a schedule mishap (and I even ended up going all the way to China because of this mishap, but that's a different story) and everyone, including our band director, who is the biggest @$$hole anyone will ever meet, was kind of like, "Oh man. Here comes Ryan." But one day, we we're playing "I Wish" by Stevie Wonder and Hutch (our term for our director) gave me a solo to try and put me in my place and I smoked him. I threw in the whole kit and kaboodle. Fingerstyle, slapping and tapping.
I currently hold the title of "best soloist" in the jazz band only because I worked up enough strength to face Hutch and all of his crap. I even got to play "Portrait of Tracy" as a solo at the Savannah Jazz Festival. Everyone at the school respects me because I showed them something they hadn't seen before. So my advice to you is this: show your classmates something that will blow them away. You can even take a couple of months to work on only one piece, but just learn something that will floor them. Do something on your trombone (or bass, or any instrument) that none of them have seen before and you've got them by the throat.
You might even get more respect than you expected. Some of the kids at my school actually think I invented slapping. Crazy, huh?
And hey, Tym2cu, just don't worry about what people say about you. If we all gagued ourselves by everyone else's opinion, then nobody would be happy, because everyone thinks different things. School is hard, and people are cruel. Maybe most of these people have a problem with themselves and want to make you seem like less than they are to make themselves feel better. When you give in to that, they have won. When you are self sufficient in how you look at yourself, then you have won. Take everyone's opinion as just that, an opinion, and they are not infallible. You seem to me like an intelligent person who has a tough time being ridiculed by other people, especially for seemingly no reason. I see nothing wrong with that and I see nothing wrong with you. Being the target of any insult is never easy or fun, but when you let it get under your skin, it will break you down.
Keep your chin up, and don't worry about what other people think. Just go to school, get the grades, and get out. When you hit college, high school doesn't matter. The people that made fun of you will be at the Gap folding the shirt you just looked at, and doting on you to make their paycheck. (I mean no insults to people working at the Gap. I work as a maintenance guy, and I have to do some pretty lowly stuff... don't ask...) Good luck, and keep playing that bass.
Keep your chin up, and don't worry about what other people think. Just go to school, get the grades, and get out. When you hit college, high school doesn't matter. The people that made fun of you will be at the Gap folding the shirt you just looked at, and doting on you to make their paycheck. (I mean no insults to people working at the Gap. I work as a maintenance guy, and I have to do some pretty lowly stuff... don't ask...) Good luck, and keep playing that bass.
Trevorus said:
The side effects of Effexor are pretty mild, and the warnings tend to be overly cautious.
I don't consider a bad day, week or month to be depression. Well, it is depression, but generally not of the sort that drugs ( or therapy for that matter ) would help.
For one, that would be SSRI. Secondly, psychiatrists don't need to complete an MD necessarily these days, either. Thirdly, no argument should ever be based upon opinion, but fact. Your claim that psychology is a second-rate field is unfounded and false. Finally, as I've said earlier, your opinion on what makes something an illness or not is irrelevant.
And I am dying to hear how you're going to explain that kids are now able to sniff out chemical depression and pick on those with it. We can now throw away surveys, fMRI, EEG and any other sort of method of analysing brain function. Send off the little 'uns and they'll do it all for us! Its far more logical that he simply isn't fitting into a certain stereotype thats teenage society expects, so he gets picked on and loses self-esteem.
In psychology, we have a term for people who use their own experiences to form opinions without looking beyond their immediate life. They're called laypersons. Did you happen to watch the "posting and you" clip? I'm sure it says that you have to back up your opinions with proof. You're still yet to add any supporting evidence to your claims.
Leigh
And I am dying to hear how you're going to explain that kids are now able to sniff out chemical depression and pick on those with it. We can now throw away surveys, fMRI, EEG and any other sort of method of analysing brain function. Send off the little 'uns and they'll do it all for us! Its far more logical that he simply isn't fitting into a certain stereotype thats teenage society expects, so he gets picked on and loses self-esteem.
In psychology, we have a term for people who use their own experiences to form opinions without looking beyond their immediate life. They're called laypersons. Did you happen to watch the "posting and you" clip? I'm sure it says that you have to back up your opinions with proof. You're still yet to add any supporting evidence to your claims.
Leigh
1) All warnings are real and a possibility. 2) There are varying kinds of depression and it lasts for different lengths for different people.Ericman197 said:
Leigh
Ericman197 said:
Well, then what exactly are you talking about? I would seriously like to know. Just because they "tend" to be mild, some people do have serious problems with taking it. Such as someone with an allergy to it... But beyond that, why not be cautious? You know someone would sue them if they said, "Well, this side effect is pretty close to nonexistent, lets not mention it," someone would raise hell and sue when that particular side effect nearly killed them.
And what you don't consider to be depression doesn't really have any bearing on whether I am depressed for a week, or a month. What if I cannot function for a week because I just don't feel like I have the emotional strength to do it? Is that depression, or a bad week. Where's the beef, dude?
Copied from the Meriiam-Webster online dictionary: Depression: (1) : a state of feeling sad : DEJECTION (2) : a psychoneurotic or psychotic disorder marked especially by sadness, inactivity, difficulty in thinking and concentration, a significant increase or decrease in appetite and time spent sleeping, feelings of dejection and hopelessness, and sometimes suicidal tendencies c (1) : a reduction in activity, amount, quality, or force (2) : a lowering of vitality or functional activity
Now where does this place depression?
(2) : a psychoneurotic or psychotic disorder marked especially by sadness, inactivity, difficulty in thinking and concentration, a significant increase or decrease in appetite and time spent sleeping, feelings of dejection and hopelessness, and sometimes suicidal tendencies
So what your depression is may not be my depression. The stuff that really gets you down may not get me down. So, who's to say what my depression is, or for me to say what your depression is. I have yet to even see the root of your depression. Did a doctor take a sample of your brain and measure it for imbalances of serotonin and/or norepinephrine? Or did he ask you a crapload of questions and prescribe drugs based on what he heard? Why is therapy not acceptible to you? Is it not the same thing? But in the end, therapy tries to allow someone to repair and heal the damage themselves, with the support of family and friends. How is one any better than the other? They really should be working hand-in-hand.
khay0s said:
You sure about that? I glanced over the Effexor XR section in the 2004 PDR, but I got bored and quit. However, the Effexor XR website states that it's an SNRI, not an SSRI.
Psychiatrists don't have to have an MD? That's news to me.
I don't believe that psychology shouldn't exist, and it does have it's uses, but yes, I do think it is second to psychiatry.
It's not so much that kids can pick out who is depressed and pick on them, but that they can detect who is weak. Humans naturally pick on the weak. Even I will sometimes pass by a goth dude and think "ugh, what a loser." It's not right to judge someone based on their appearance, but we all do it. There are a lot of people I know who I've taken advantage of because they're weak. Whether they're depressed, have low self esteem or are just "nice guys," they're easy targets. I know it's wrong, but I do it anyway, and it's been done to me plenty of times.
