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I made up my mind: I prefer lined fretless.
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
- Start date
Seems like lined is easier to find.
I am very partial to unlined and sometimes I think I know what it must be like to be left handed. (In terms of gear hunting.)
I am very partial to unlined and sometimes I think I know what it must be like to be left handed. (In terms of gear hunting.)
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,079
- 46,042
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
I would have been interesting to see if you might have preferred a really nice unlined bass to an uber cheap lined one.
But in any case, anything that reduces GAS is great in my book. All lined basses are essentially invisible to me, just like all FSOs, and I like it that way!
Well guys, I'm with Doc on this one. My jaco pastorius jazz bass turned me into a lines believer. I've played the FL for about 20 years, and approx. the last 10 to 15 years exclusively, with 98% of that time on the unlined. But once I got a lined bass some months ago and really started playing it extensively, I see now what the fuss is all about and I'm a believer in lines now.
Usually when the topic of fretless comes up, the questions in my mind tend to center around basically the following:
- What does losing the frets really buy you on the EB? Does it buy you anything? Does it make you "a better musician" as is sometimes claimed on TB?
- on the lines vs no lines issue, is there any added value in the additional investment in mastering the more difficult intonation on the unlined?
- is there any valid comparison between the FL EB and the upright bass, which is an unlined fretless instrument?
Here's my take on these questions at this point in time:
The EB was originally designed as a fretted instrument, a compliment instrument to the guitar in fact. Strange but true: the FL is an innovation on the EB, not part of its original design or intent. I'm not sure if Jaco was the first to experiment with an FL EB, but he is generally credited as the one who popularized it. I'm not certain about what he felt were the fretless's benefits, but he did state plainly his reasoning for preferring lines and I believe he quoted design reasons (long neck, no physical markers like the heel, etc. on the UB, and so on). But obviously it bought him the particular tone that comes with losing the frets.
As for does the fretless make you a better musician somehow. Well, it hasn't made me a better musician. I suck just as badly today on the FL as I do if I pick up a fretted bass. I play both equally badly. I don't know the experience of others, but that's my experience.
As for the added value proposition of losing the lines too. I agree with Doc on this one also. I can't detect any added value in the additional difficulty of learning to intonate on the unlined. The main counter-argument out there on this matter is the one where you don't have visual access to the board. The idea being that the lack of lines better prepares you for intonating when the board is invisible. My personal experience on this is mixed. I suck so bad when I can't see the board there's no practical difference whether it's lined or not. Good FL players may have different results that are meaningful on that question.
As for comparing the FL EB to the upright bass as a way to advocate the unlined as being more beneficial, I don't play the UB so I can't comment from experience. But in my opinion, they're such different instruments that I don't think a comparison is valid. That's what UB players say and I tend to believe them. It's much longer scale, much huger, much more cumbersome physically and is played upright. But it also has design features, like the proximity of the neck heel, that help with intonation significantly. So probably apples and oranges.
So that's my take on the fretless EB at this point in my "storied" career. Losing the frets helps gets rid of the clinky, tinkly, crinkly rattle of fretted basses, and the lack of frets makes the necks a little thinner. Though it wasn't until I was many years into playing the FL that I discovered you could also get rid of the rattling by just turning the treble down with the tone knob. D'oh.... But by that time it was too late and I no longer had any fretted basses anymore. I'm a little slow like that....
As to lined vs unlined, and which I prefer, the lined is definitely easier to intonate, especially further up on the fingerboard. The unlined, though, has practical advantages for manufacturing, mainly the fact that the board has no fret slots cut in it. So for X amount of dollars, you're somewhat more likely to get a buzz-free fingerboard with an unlined version, than the lined version. I've complained about this elsewhere so won't go into details on that here.
That's my story, at least at this point, and I'm stickin' to it.
L
Usually when the topic of fretless comes up, the questions in my mind tend to center around basically the following:
- What does losing the frets really buy you on the EB? Does it buy you anything? Does it make you "a better musician" as is sometimes claimed on TB?
- on the lines vs no lines issue, is there any added value in the additional investment in mastering the more difficult intonation on the unlined?
- is there any valid comparison between the FL EB and the upright bass, which is an unlined fretless instrument?
Here's my take on these questions at this point in time:
The EB was originally designed as a fretted instrument, a compliment instrument to the guitar in fact. Strange but true: the FL is an innovation on the EB, not part of its original design or intent. I'm not sure if Jaco was the first to experiment with an FL EB, but he is generally credited as the one who popularized it. I'm not certain about what he felt were the fretless's benefits, but he did state plainly his reasoning for preferring lines and I believe he quoted design reasons (long neck, no physical markers like the heel, etc. on the UB, and so on). But obviously it bought him the particular tone that comes with losing the frets.
As for does the fretless make you a better musician somehow. Well, it hasn't made me a better musician. I suck just as badly today on the FL as I do if I pick up a fretted bass. I play both equally badly. I don't know the experience of others, but that's my experience.
As for the added value proposition of losing the lines too. I agree with Doc on this one also. I can't detect any added value in the additional difficulty of learning to intonate on the unlined. The main counter-argument out there on this matter is the one where you don't have visual access to the board. The idea being that the lack of lines better prepares you for intonating when the board is invisible. My personal experience on this is mixed. I suck so bad when I can't see the board there's no practical difference whether it's lined or not. Good FL players may have different results that are meaningful on that question.
As for comparing the FL EB to the upright bass as a way to advocate the unlined as being more beneficial, I don't play the UB so I can't comment from experience. But in my opinion, they're such different instruments that I don't think a comparison is valid. That's what UB players say and I tend to believe them. It's much longer scale, much huger, much more cumbersome physically and is played upright. But it also has design features, like the proximity of the neck heel, that help with intonation significantly. So probably apples and oranges.
So that's my take on the fretless EB at this point in my "storied" career. Losing the frets helps gets rid of the clinky, tinkly, crinkly rattle of fretted basses, and the lack of frets makes the necks a little thinner. Though it wasn't until I was many years into playing the FL that I discovered you could also get rid of the rattling by just turning the treble down with the tone knob. D'oh.... But by that time it was too late and I no longer had any fretted basses anymore. I'm a little slow like that....
As to lined vs unlined, and which I prefer, the lined is definitely easier to intonate, especially further up on the fingerboard. The unlined, though, has practical advantages for manufacturing, mainly the fact that the board has no fret slots cut in it. So for X amount of dollars, you're somewhat more likely to get a buzz-free fingerboard with an unlined version, than the lined version. I've complained about this elsewhere so won't go into details on that here.
That's my story, at least at this point, and I'm stickin' to it.
L
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Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
- 29,772
- 30,452
- Disclosures
- I like 5, 8, 10, and 12 string basses
Yeah. Cause he just got on with playing and didn't worry about stupid crap on talkbass.
Agree 100%. I'm very happy with my ESP 5-string fretless with lines.
I played my fretless yesterday for the first time in awhile. I think I'm about ready to resurface the neck (it was a DIY job when I bought it, not terrible, but there is a slight buzz when you're right on the lines from the filler shrinking)
Funny story - I couldn't find it yesterday - it wasn't with all the other cases. I was freaking out thinking I maybe left it at a gig. (I sometimes bring it as a backup, but it stays in the truck). I didn't bring a backup to my last gig, so this would have been a couple months ago, LONG GONE.
Found it behind something in the basement, I have no idea how it got back there, I always keep em all together.
Funny story - I couldn't find it yesterday - it wasn't with all the other cases. I was freaking out thinking I maybe left it at a gig. (I sometimes bring it as a backup, but it stays in the truck). I didn't bring a backup to my last gig, so this would have been a couple months ago, LONG GONE.
Found it behind something in the basement, I have no idea how it got back there, I always keep em all together.
Proper side dots roughly on every other note are a must for me. I like them at 1,2,3,5,7,9, etc.. now the two missing between 9 and 12 and 12 and 15 are an irritation, but I’m overcoming that easily.
I can’t say I truly care about lines since I don’t use them, but I prefer lineless just for looks.
The white Eagle is my newest addition.
the old guard...
I can’t say I truly care about lines since I don’t use them, but I prefer lineless just for looks.
The white Eagle is my newest addition.
the old guard...
I would also add that I strongly prefer the appearance of an unlined board. In fact, I originally bought my first FL practically for looks alone (my '99 or '00 L2K, may it R.I.P.). I was drawn to fretless at the time and had the choice of several lined basses. But the L2K with the unlined #6 neck on it was too awesome looking to resist....
These days I mostly don't care, but I love how my tony franklin looks and I think its prettier than even my jaco pastorius, I'm not afraid to admit it..
L
These days I mostly don't care, but I love how my tony franklin looks and I think its prettier than even my jaco pastorius, I'm not afraid to admit it..
L
Did you re-position the dots on your Glarry? I can't imagine anyone taking on a Glarry (with dots not on the fret lines) as their first foray into unlined fretless. It'd be an excercise infrustration for me and my fretlesses have always been unlined.
Put another way, I don't think a Glarry is fair comparison to a lined fretless. Sort of like saying I like Coke better than Pepsi but I've only tried new coke. If you like the lines, more power to you, but I've always found properly placed dots to be just as useful.
I also admit unashamedly that my preference for unlined is (which is primarily for aesthetics) is in no small part for the show-off of being able to play a board with no lines or frets. But people listen with their eyes so from a show perspective a lined fretless misses that completely.
EDIT. Just saw this.
In this case I guess you're probably best served by a lined fretless. I still think the Glary is the new Coke of the unlined fretless world but if you added side lines and still weren't feeling it you've definitely done your homework.
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If it's good enough for Gary Willis, it's good enough for me.
I asked Michael Manring about it and he said his were unlined mostly out of habit from years. He told me if lines help you with intonation, by all means use them because intonation is very important! More important than the looks.
Norm Stockton prefers the lines since there are times your monitoring isn't ideal so it's a good reference in those conditions as well.
I asked Michael Manring about it and he said his were unlined mostly out of habit from years. He told me if lines help you with intonation, by all means use them because intonation is very important! More important than the looks.
Norm Stockton prefers the lines since there are times your monitoring isn't ideal so it's a good reference in those conditions as well.
Another lined guy is Bunny Brunel, one of the real greats on the FL. He not only uses lines, he uses the full pattern of the fretted bass, like my jaco pastorius and some others. Where the side dot pattern is from the fretted bass also.
Somehow these lined guys play FL well gigging in dark situations in bars, etc., too so thats kind of a counter-argument to the can't-see-the-board thing....
L
Somehow these lined guys play FL well gigging in dark situations in bars, etc., too so thats kind of a counter-argument to the can't-see-the-board thing....
L
The Glarry is really fun to play, but when I got back on lined fretless, it too a minute to transition, but it just so much easier.
The great thing about unlined fretless is there’s nothing to contradict you and make you feel badly when you think you were in tune. Except, you know, maybe the rest of the music and any other players. Maybe your tuner.
The look of an unlined fretless makes me want to play it, “cool, I can probably do it” as if I’ve never played one before and don’t know better.
Lined fretless makes me think “oh fretless is a lot of work and I won’t play it often why am I even looking at a fretless bass.”
The thing is I know it’s easier to play in tune on a lined board, but my perception still won’t let me like it. When I’m doing mediocre on a lined fretless my brain is like “Augh! It must not be you out of tune, it must be these lines!!!“
The look of an unlined fretless makes me want to play it, “cool, I can probably do it” as if I’ve never played one before and don’t know better.
Lined fretless makes me think “oh fretless is a lot of work and I won’t play it often why am I even looking at a fretless bass.”
The thing is I know it’s easier to play in tune on a lined board, but my perception still won’t let me like it. When I’m doing mediocre on a lined fretless my brain is like “Augh! It must not be you out of tune, it must be these lines!!!“
