I think Fender is seriously crazy!

[bassbully]

Accidents still happen. Lot of time on the road?

Trust me if you are Geddy's tech or say Clapton's you are not long for the road if something happens to their gear. I used to work behind the scenes and got to be on some big stages. That gear was guarded like a hawk at our clubs and kept lookin' real Purdy by the techs.

 

[georgestrings]

This is exactly when I get pissed off/annoyed with this whole conversation. It's not a BS claim when someone says it's "just as good". You're right, some people like to play nice stuff - and it IS probably BUILT better. This does not mean that it is better at doing the job.

Strong with this one, the super bass-snobbery is.

Not at all - I've made no secret that I gigged for about 10 years with a pair of MIK Squiers, just like the ones that bassbully spoke about - they got the job done just fine, but to claim that they are "just as good" as the MIA Fenders and EBMMs I currently gig with is a load of crap, plain and simple...


- georgestrings

 

[Lownote38]

Or, maybe some people like to own and play nice stuff, and don't mind spending their money on it - while others are either too cheap or too broke to do the same - so, they *try* to make the BS "just as good" claims, in an effort to make themselves feel better...


- georgestrings

Or, the sound really comes from your technique and your fingers and it doesn't matter what you play.

 

[georgestrings]

In that case - apologies georgestrings - I see you post a lot of good stuff here. I just can't find a way to disagree stronger.

No prob - I agree to disagree...


- georgestrings

 

[punkjazzben]

Okay, I'm going to give a serious response now. I'm even going to use italics and bold letters to show how serious I'm being.

From a marketing and psychological perspective, I think FMIC has, or had, consumers right where they wanted them, and it's all about tapping into our aspirations. I think the whole Fender thing is about creating, shaping, and meeting those aspirations. In fact, the whole marketing thing is about that.

This is exactly why auto dealers have a boutique model right in the middle of the showroom, or have a boutique model in production full-stop - it's there to excite and direct our aspirations. The brand can be boutique, and so it's worth associating ourselves with. We can't afford the top model, but we can afford something a bit cheaper. And maybe one day we hope we can afford something a bit nicer. Think about the Ford Mustang line.

For years, the 'common wisdom' in bass/guitar world has been that, for instance, MIA beats MIM beats Squier. When we bought our first Squier (perhaps conveniently packed in a starter's pack), we then aspired to a 'real' Fender. When we couldn't buy an American Fender, we bought a Mexican Fender. Close enough, right? Well, for some, yes. But there was still a decent chunk of us who still aspired to an American Fender. At the MIA level, a big segment gets off the train happy, but a few stay on, aspiring for a CS or a fancy RI - something that's just a bit more different from everyone else's MIA, just a little bit more boutique (and, importantly, recognizably so).

At some point, Fender probably realised that they were losing too many people at the slightly lower rungs (MIM), and decided to create products we could continue to aspire to owning, but could realistically do so. Enter Roadworn, Classic 50s/70s, etc. These are all just a little bit more 'boutique' than a MIM Standard - The RW, IMO, is pure genius - how many people aspire to have a beaten up Fender with mojo? Probably a lot. It might not be 'real', but it looks real enough from a distance. Vain creatures we are.

But what about the people who still couldn't afford anything with 'Fender' on the headstock, and so went on to a different brand after their Affinity had served its purpose? Well, the CV and VM line were created to fill that gap. They're clearly different from the Affinity line, and only a small step up in price - and they're selling truckloads. Was it part of the Fender plan to let so many customers off at the CV/VM level? I don't know, but the new Squier models have certainly got people questioning whether it's worth it (for them) to continue to aspire to a 'real' Fender. And there's enough of us gushing about Squiers on TB to help us feel satisfied with the basses.

Now, these basses might have measurable differences in quality, but that's mostly moot from the business perspective - the important thing is that enough people perceive and believe that the difference in price is justified, and therefore aspire to the 'higher' models. And let's not beat around the bush: when it comes to Fender there is a huge segment of musicians who are very self-conscious about the perceived status of their instrument - they feel better having an MIA Fender than they do 'just' having a Chinese Squier.

I think the reason these discussions get so heated is this issue of aspirations - guys who enjoy playing basses that happen to cost less don't like to be told their aspirations are stunted or misguided, while guys who like to play basses that happen to cost more don't like to be told their aspirations (and achievements) are actually hollow. When we have a made a choice to play certain basses and pay a certain amount, there's a lot of emotional investment going on as well. Whether we like it or not, what and how we consume forms a big part of the way we relate to one another and present ourselves to the world. Being told our modes of consumption are bonkers is a personal attack, and most of us won't like being attacked for who we are.

 

[kohntarkosz]

LOVE TB

Takes no prisoners.

If I had expensive gear I would be sick of guys with cheap gear that their stuff was just as good. If I had cheap gear I would be sick of the guys with expensive gear rubbing my noses in it.

For what it is worth, I have a MIM Fender Jazz bass circa 2013. My Yamaha BB bass, which cost less, is probably built to the same, if not slightly higher quality. The neck is mounted in a much sturdier way and it has through-body stringing. Sure you are paying for the big F on the headstock, to a degree, but it would by cynical to suggest Fender only shift units because of the name alone. Fender, on the other hand, make sure you know full well you only have a MIM instrument. Even the American Special basses have decals highlighting your potential cheapness to the discerning eye.

The expensive basses are not as big of an improvement over the cheap ones as the rich guys would like, and the cheap ones are not usually as good as the cheap guys would like them to be but probably better than the rich guys would like them to be, whilst simultaneously the expensive basses are better than the cheap guys wish they were. Repeat ten times.

 

[georgestrings]

Or, the sound really comes from your technique and your fingers and it doesn't matter what you play.

Hey, I can get the job done with nearly anything that's remotely functional - that still doesn't change the fact that some gear is nicer than other gear...


- georgestrings

 

[WoodyG3]

You really think those guys get their axes busted up allot? Watch some of those videos of their tech explaining their setups. there are bass and guitars with allot of history still on the road on major tours. Those guys are awesome with their equipment.

Geddy still uses a pretty standard Fender..when's the breakin out the Fodera..hum?

Geddy's Fenders are built in the custom shop per his order, so this isn't really helping your argument.

 

[WoodyG3]

The expensive basses are not as big of an improvement over the cheap ones as the rich guys would like, and the cheap ones are not usually as good as the cheap guys would like them to be but probably better than the rich guys would like them to be, whilst simultaneously the expensive basses are better than the cheap guys wish they were. Repeat ten times.

LOL. That is my favorite post on TB in quite a while.

 

[KingRazor]

Takes no prisoners.
The expensive basses are not as big of an improvement over the cheap ones as the rich guys would like, and the cheap ones are not usually as good as the cheap guys would like them to be but probably better than the rich guys would like them to be, whilst simultaneously the expensive basses are better than the cheap guys wish they were. Repeat ten times.

You speak the truth, sir.

 

[kohntarkosz]

LOL. That is my favorite post on TB in quite a while.

It isn't merely a post, it is TB.

 

[SonnyBassPlayer]

Prices went up a lot in the very last years (3-4) in Italy too. I bought my first P bass new in a shop for 520 euros. Bought the second one online for 570 (still new) two years later. Now, the very same shop where I bought my first one sells the same (MIM std) for about 670 euros, pure crazyness. and the Classic 50s for almost 800.... We have horrible taxing, but still.. everything went up

 

[BurningSkies]

The expensive basses are not as big of an improvement over the cheap ones as the rich guys would like, and the cheap ones are not usually as good as the cheap guys would like them to be but probably better than the rich guys would like them to be, whilst simultaneously the expensive basses are better than the cheap guys wish they were. Repeat ten times.

In the end, I don't really care as long as people are happy with what they play. I play a bass that offers something that Fender bass doesn't. On stage people don't blink at it because its not a Fender, so it must be something cheap. Sometimes people ask me if its an Ibanez or a Carvin. You know..."prestige brands".

The quantifiable stuff that spending more money on a bass can give you includes things like more expensive components, costlier wood choices, finish choices, better fit and finish, better electronics (my MIJ Jazz had REALLY cheap pots compared to a stock MIA), more attention to detail and/or end setup. That stuff is either worth it to you, or not. I've had MIJ Fenders that were just as nice as some MIA Fenders. Sometimes costlier just means it was made with 'cheaper hands' due to labor costs. Sometimes more expensive means better quality control and you just have to touch fewer of them before you find a good one.

 

[TravisJ]

Geddy still uses a pretty standard Fender..when's the breakin out the Fodera..hum?

Do you really think Geddy is playing a MIM bass he grabbed off the wall at a local GC?

 

[FunkHead]

Prices went up a lot in the very last years (3-4) in Italy too. I bought my first P bass new in a shop for 520 euros. Bought the second one online for 570 (still new) two years later. Now, the very same shop where I bought my first one sells the same (MIM std) for about 670 euros, pure crazyness. and the Classic 50s for almost 800.... We have horrible taxing, but still.. everything went up

How's the used market there? I pretty much stick to used these days. Especially from a friend or trusted seller. If they say it's good and I trust them then I can make it great with some adjustments. I see mint classic 50's all the time for $450 +/-.

 

[BurningSkies]

Do you really think Geddy is playing a MIM bass he grabbed off the wall at a local GC?

From a 2012 article:

All That Jazz
Lee’s No. 1 bass is a black ‘72 Fender Jazz bass “that has been seen time and time again, onstage and in photos, and to which all other bass guitars are compared,” McIntosh says. “This instrument carries most of the weight during the show.”
The pickups are original, though the bridge pickup was rewound to virtually original specs by Tom Brantley at Mojo Tone in North Carolina in 2010. That same year, it was outfi tted with its third neck—a maple Fender Custom Shop version with a 9" radius, white binding, and aged pearl block inlays. According to McIntosh, it has “a little more mass than the typical Geddy Lee-style neck,” and like all of Lee’s basses, the back of the neck has a rubbed oil fi nish. It’s set up very straight, with extremely low string height and fast action. The medium-weight alder body features an aged pearl pickguard custom-engraved by James Hogg with the alchemical symbol for amalgamation. Says McIntosh, “All the touring basses have scratch plates engraved and paint-fi lled by James with various alchemical symbols.” Like all of Lee’s Jazz basses, No. 1 has a Badass II bridge.
Lee’s No. 2 bass is a sunburst ‘72 Fender Jazz with a neck made by Mike Bump at the Fender Custom Shop in 2011. It’s used as his main backup and for “Seven Cities of Gold” and “Wish Them Well” off the new album. Like No. 1, it has a 9"-radius maple fretboard, but the binding and block inlays are black. Its pickups were made by Brantley at Mojo Tone and are based on No. 1’s.
When performing “Bravado” (from Roll the Bones), Lee plays a black ’74 Jazz with a neck just like that on his No. 1. “It has the original pickups,” McIntosh says mysteriously, “but with a little voodoo inside to get just a little something more out of them.” All three ’70s basses have the original tuners and string trees.
Lee’s “elegant” candy apple red Fender Custom Shop Jazz bass has an ash body with a maple cap. It has a slightly narrower neck than his ’70s basses, but still has a 9"-radius maple fretboard. “This bass has been around for a while and has Custom Shop pickups in a ’60s-style spacing,” McIntosh explains. Lee uses it for “2112,” as well as “Halo Effect,” “The Wreckers,” and “The Garden” from Clockwork. His backup for the red Jazz is a sunburst Fender Geddy Lee signature bass.
For “The Pass” (from 1989’s Presto), Lee plays a D-tuned black Jazz bass assembled from parts—including a Mike Bump-built Custom Shop neck and pickups by Tom Brantley. McIntosh says Lee also recently received a new Custom Shop surf green Jazz bass built by Jason Smith that will be used on four songs.

 

[Mark4]

if you want a classic sounding jazz, a good classic 60's (ive had some with bad necks) will be more legit than an american standard. the graphite rods change the tone.

Even taking the graphite rods out of the picture, the Classic series is as close to an original recipe Fender as you'll find this side of the Reissue series, and those sell for twice as much. Comparing them to the USA Standard series is apples and oranges. They could be identically priced, and the Classic series would still be a good deal.

 

[P Town]

"the graphite rods change the tone"

No problem. I use a $1000.00 power cord on my amp to overcome the horrendous tone of the graphite rods.

 

[JoeWPgh]

There is a simple reason "cheap" basses have gotten so much better in comparison to "good basses" CNC - Computer-Numeric-Routing. The CNC machines are better and cheaper than ever, and the supporting CAD files have been refined over the years. Country of origin barely matters, as there is not much work for actual humans to perform. I still prefer to pay a human to do the work though.

 

[BurningSkies]

There is a simple reason "cheap" basses have gotten so much better in comparison to "good basses" CNC - Computer-Numeric-Routing. The CNC machines are better and cheaper than ever, and the supporting CAD files have been refined over the years. Country of origin barely matters, as there is not much work for actual humans to perform. I still prefer to pay a human to do the work though.

I agree that CNC has helped, and not just in cheap basses, across the board in production. Although I think there's still plenty of hands on and skilled labor after the CNC process.