IMO, neck dive on expensive guitars is absolutely inexcusable

[Christine]

Body weight and muscularity have nothing to do with the issues that can arise from wearing heavy basses or neck dive. The trapezius and shoulder muscles can be strained or impinged even when well built and using lighter weights.

If your trapezius and shoulder muscles are suffering then you need to get them match fit and exercise them appropriately

 

[Christine]

And gear weight?

Obviously a lightweight bass is easier but I have no objection to playing a heavy one, my Fenderbird is 13lbs 2 and it sounds and looks great, I just use a wide strap with all my basses and get on with it

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

If your trapezius and shoulder muscles are suffering then you need to get them match fit and exercise them appropriately

As I already said, exercising them will not alleviate the pain or potential impingement issues you can get from heavy basses or neck dive. You aren’t going to be flexing your neck for the entirety of a three-hour gig to aid in lifting the bass away from your body. It’s going to be sitting over the same nerves and tendons whether you do 100 shrugs a week or not. Strengthening them won’t provide immunity to chronic wear. That’s simply not how it works.

 

[Christine]

As I already said, exercising them will not alleviate the pain or potential impingement issues you can get from heavy basses or neck dive. You aren’t going to be flexing your neck for the entirety of a three-hour gig to aid in lifting the bass away from your body. It’s going to be sitting over the same nerves and tendons whether you do 100 shrugs a week or not. Strengthening them won’t provide immunity to chronic wear. That’s simply not how it works.

You and I see things very differently. I'm not going to be drawn into an argument with an administrator because I will only end up being banned

 

[chris_b]

IMO neck dive and excessive weight is a sign of bad ergonomic design. I know some of the worst culprits are iconic instruments but, fortunately any bass I am attracted to doesn't have either of these problems.

 

[gln1955]

If poorly designed basses don't bother you, that's great, but it's kind of absurd to link the desire for a comfortable bass with physical fitness.

 

[Passinwind]

How old are you, and do you have any spinal injuries/diseases? I am only 25 but I suffer from muscular dystrophy and early onset osteoarthritis, everyone who's in their 20-30s just keeps saying "suck it up" but nobody SHOULD suck it up, because if you play your instrument a lot, every discomfort it causes will eventually turn into a form of injury, this isn't just an instrument thing, it's a TOOL USAGE thing.

Yep. When I was about your age I was an upright-only player. As hand issues started to pop up I went to a specialist who was a music lover and he gave me a very stern set of alternatives. Bottom line was get my hand fused in "the claw" or bail. And being such a misguided yout, my solution was to buy a very unbalanced and stupid heavy Travis Bean fretless, which I played pretty much every day for upwards of thirty years. My solution to the inevitable neck back and shoulder issues did include rigorous athletic workouts (which actually were responsible for the hand issues in the first place), but eventually I settled on EUB as a workable compromise. And coming full circle, I do play a "real" upright for a few hours each week these days. I can think of worse ways to die...

As far as ergonomic engineering, the most comfortable and least grinding instrument I've yet played is a ~9.5 pound single cut. The way it balances plays a huge part in that. It looks clunky as hell at first blush and it's definitely not very rock and roll. Suits me perfectly, as it mirrors my own vibe completely.

 

[DDXdesign]

Enjoying this thread and how it counterpoints the thread about weight from a little while ago.

Obviously the mechanics and physics of it all shows that the dive thing is largely attributed to the design, but of course if you have a heavy enough body or light enough head it can be countered.

I just realized that in about 2004-5, I had three basses - Two Thumbs and a T-bird - that were all candidates for hella dive, but I didn't have much issue with playing them then, and I think the Bird's big rear wing helped balance it against dive actually. One of the Thumbs was a heavy one too (the other was the 'bleach blonde' maple one). But nowadays, the ergonomics thereof wouldn't play too nice with my shoulder, so i try to find lighter weight and better balance points.

Recently tried a JMJ Mustang and a PJ Mustang out - Mustangs are light weight, short scale, and a roughly 12th-fret upper horn button. Still lots of dive, due to the weight of the tuners/head. Contrast the Gibson Grabber II and G3 I tried after that, where the strap button is sort of 14th fret and the strap position against the upper horn is a little odd: Not quite as much dive as the Mustangs, even though the upper horn is farther back!

So it's almost a crapshoot even though the design contributes a lot and gives you a solid assumption starting point.

EDIT: rephrased a couple awkward/clunky things

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

If poorly designed basses don't bother you, that's great, but it's kind of absurd to link the desire for a comfortable bass with physical fitness.

Not to mention potentially hazardous.

FWIW I’m also in pretty good shape- I weight train and run 4-5 miles a day 5 days a week. I’m nearly if not just as likely to get a repetitive stress injury as someone who doesn’t do all that.

 

[BobbyBellPepper]

Want no neck dive? Look at where this upper horn aligns to.

View attachment 3057652

NICE BASS!

 

[redwingxix]

How does the topic of neck dive devolve into crossfit commandos vs. old fatties? Aren't we talking about whether neck dive is acceptable in a pricey bass?

Correct answer is only if you like banging your headstock into your amp between songs.

 

[Dr. Funk]

I would say a 4 string bubinga bodied thumb would have least neck dive of all thumb basses and a 6 string would have the most. I love Warwick basses but am also reluctant to try a thumb because I can't stand neck dive. I have an alder bodied corvette that has a tendency to sit totally horizontal and that bothers me enough.

Actually, my all maple Thumb has virtually no neck dive issues compared to my bubinga model, they are both 4 strings. It’s also much lighter overall, very comfortable to play.

 

[Happy Face]

I was thinking about a related issue a few weeks back. Even pondered posting something about it.

After a practice that ran for over three hours with no break, one shoulder was a little stiff, but all-in-all no prob. That was when playing a semi-heavy but nicely-balanced Rickenbacker.

Start contrast with a practice the week before when hoisted up a very light weight hollow body. The head dive is so horrible that even with a "Heads Up" strap with weights in the tail end, I felt much more tired, I think because the bass was always tugging, wanting to dive into the pool.

I get that hanging your forearm over the body or "manning it up" with your fretting hand will compensate. but I spent years unlearning that kind of sloppy technique.

So, I guess I agree with the OP.

 

[stefancaunter]

Hi, I have a $10,000 guitar and a $3 nylon strap.

How can I fix neck dive without changing my current set up?

you probably have $3 patch cables too

 

[J-Bassomatic]

No, this was EB0 levels of neck dive right there on a 1900e instrument.

Being an ex EB0 owner I got a good laugh out of that. Dang cool looking basses tho.

 

[Ukko]

Being an ex EB0 owner I got a good laugh out of that. Dang cool looking basses tho.

I've never had an EB-0 or SG guitar with neck dive, and I've owned them (present and past) for decades.

I played a Thumb, once, on a strap. It didn't neck dive either.

Guess I'm fortunate that the OP hasn't gotten himself appointed International Bass Design Czar, with the power to decide what designs should or shouldn't be allowed. That's obviously what he wants.

 

[Happy Face]

I've never had an EB-0 or SG guitar with neck dive, and I've owned them (present and past) for decades.

I played a Thumb, once, on a strap. It didn't neck dive either.

Guess I'm fortunate that the OP hasn't gotten himself appointed International Bass Design Czar, with the power to decide what designs should or shouldn't be allowed. That's obviously what he wants.

Aren't neck and head five quite different issues?

 

[Happy Face]

Aren't neck and head five quite different issues?

Make that neck and head DIVE. I thought that one had to do with the fretboard/neck bowing or something like that and the other the Balance on the strap.

I recall getting a snarky correction about that in the early days of online bass chat groups. But I'd still fail the test.

That said, the OP has a great point. Being a MEGA Jack Bruce fan, I briefly pondered buying that Javk Bruce tribute bass. Until I read that it suffers from horrible ****dive.

The price was too high to pay for a sub-optimal instrument.

 

[gln1955]

Make that neck and head DIVE. I thought that one had to do with the fretboard/neck bowing or something like that and the other the Balance on the strap.

Are you maybe thinking about a ski jump in the neck?

 

[Ian Lewis]

Not all do, some balance well, some are meh, and some headstock dive, but this one was particularly bad. I'ts a QC error at this point, a guitar with a defect this serious should not leave the factory. Also, making the "horn pipe" a default thing on thumbs would make more sense than forcing people to modify their newly bought instruments so that they don't have a serious defect.

I'm a Warwick devotee, but I have to tell you that all Thumbs Neck-Dive. The more strings you order the worse it gets, and if you order the broad neck for wider string spacing on a 5/6 it's much worse. Why you'd order an expensive bass without playing it first is beyond me, especially when you can see that the horn strap mount is positioned in line with the 16th fret! The best balanced basses all appear to have the strap in line with the 12th, and/or have the tuning pegs on the body instead of the headstock.