IMO, neck dive on expensive guitars is absolutely inexcusable

[InternetAlias]

No, it puts the bass at a different angle.

My T-bird doesn't dive when worn at or below belt level. It does if you wear it higher.

He plays the bass in a high position at a 45 degree angle. I hold it lower but almost vertically, neither of us could actually even play our stuff if it were lower.

Also agreed. Some body styles work for a 4 string but don't have large enough bodies to balance the weight of a 6 string neck.

See, I work in engineering, and it's a cardinal mistake to reuse designs that suddenly don't work due to change in parameters. You have to adapt the design to reflect changes in parameters. If Warwick uses the same body size/type/strap position on their 6 string models, it's a design mistake.

I've previously played a neckthrough version of the thumb, it was a 4 string, and it balanced just fine. Wasn't exactly to my specifications (almost vertically) but it certainly fit the "at least 45 degree angle" criteria. If Warwick took the exact same design and just made it a 6 string, it's a mistake on their part. Imagine you take a car, put two additional wheels on it, make it so it's possible to mount them, but don't change basically anything else. Nobody driving a car would ever defend this design "solution".

A heavier body could help

Or just make the horn longer, like a normal person would. Adding weight in order to retain a ******** aesthetic is quite mind numbing.

but I see TB people complain about that a lot too. I’ve come to appreciate that bass players are pretty delicate flowers about such things

How old are you, and do you have any spinal injuries/diseases? I am only 25 but I suffer from muscular dystrophy and early onset osteoarthritis, everyone who's in their 20-30s just keeps saying "suck it up" but nobody SHOULD suck it up, because if you play your instrument a lot, every discomfort it causes will eventually turn into a form of injury, this isn't just an instrument thing, it's a TOOL USAGE thing.

My mate is in his 40s and while he has no injuries or diseases, he takes gigs 4+ hours at a time, which is starting to wear him down.

 

[Korladis]

He plays the bass in a high position at a 45 degree angle. I hold it lower but almost vertically, neither of us could actually even play our stuff if it were lower.



See, I work in engineering, and it's a cardinal mistake to reuse designs that suddenly don't work due to change in parameters. You have to adapt the design to reflect changes in parameters. If Warwick uses the same body size/type/strap position on their 6 string models, it's a design mistake.

I've previously played a neckthrough version of the thumb, it was a 4 string, and it balanced just fine. Wasn't exactly to my specifications (almost vertically) but it certainly fit the "at least 45 degree angle" criteria. If Warwick took the exact same design and just made it a 6 string, it's a mistake on their part. Imagine you take a car, put two additional wheels on it, make it so it's possible to mount them, but don't change basically anything else. Nobody driving a car would ever defend this design "solution".

The problem with that logic is that it breaks down if you take it to the logical conclusions. Make the neck wide enough to accommodate more and more strings, and even body shapes that normally balance just fine will start neck diving. Fender Js and Ps shapes don't usually neck dive even with five or six strings, but make the neck wide enough to accommodate eight or nine, and that might change.

Just because a bass body isn't suited to use with a six string neck doesn't mean it shouldn't ever be used for a four, either.

 

[InternetAlias]

Just because a bass body isn't suited to use with a six string neck doesn't mean it shouldn't ever be used for a four, either.

I think you should re-read my post, because that's not at all something I claimed, I actually said that the neck through 4 string I tried (several years back) did fine. So I guess a NT 4 string thumb can work, if just barely. A 6 string thumb that's BO is just way out the water.

 

[lfmn16]

Hi, I have a $10,000 guitar and a $3 nylon strap.

How can I fix neck dive without changing my current set up?

Play laying on your back - no neck dive!

 

[gln1955]

"Is an expensive bass guitar allowed to have neck dive?"

Yes, by law they are, but are required to have a warning label on the bass, as well as on any advertisements, for those who can't be bothered to research or try a bass before buying.

 

[mdogs]

I think you should re-read my post, because that's not at all something I claimed, I actually said that the neck through 4 string I tried (several years back) did fine. So I guess a NT 4 string thumb can work, if just barely. A 6 string thumb that's BO is just way out the water.

Here is what baffles me. How on earth could you allow your “friend” to buy a bass like this? Clearly, as you have pointed out multiple times in this thread, you know more about neck dive and the associated physics than anyone who has responded in this thread and most likely than anyone on Talkbass. Shameful, absolutely shameful.

 

[wvbass]

Imagine you take a car, put two additional wheels on it, make it so it's possible to mount them, but don't change basically anything else.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

It's only a QC issue if there's an acceptable "neck dive" spec.

Holy words ... definition of QC practice and procedures ...

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

How come nobody is putting strap buttons to the side of the neck, though? It always struck me as a logical solution, but there are probably some downsides to this.

Drill a hole into that Thumb no? Easy peasy ...

 

[InhumanResource]

Ah, me too. This explains why I've never understood what people mean by "neck dive" or why it would be a problem.

I have never once encountered this issue either. Just position the thing to where it doesn't slide down your shoulder and use a nice wide strap.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

I have never once encountered this issue either. Just position the thing to where it doesn't slide down your shoulder and use a nice wide strap.

Sa same with me ... it depends on the player ... everything is much relative in this case

 

[socialleper]

One of the things I'm paying for when I buy an expensive bass is proper craftsmanship. Everything should be well designed and dialed in.
Sadly, as much as I love thr tone of many Warwick basses the Corvette and Thumb designs are unbalanced and ergonomically challenged. Some of my favorite players use them, but the Corvette $$ I had gave me nothing but trouble.
The paradox of a Thumb is, yes, you can go buy a $300 Squier that is more balanced, but it will never EVER sound as good. A Thumb is a Thumb, period. If you want that tone you have to suck it up I guess.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I too have a Thumb BO6 and it is heavy and the neck dive well, not really to me, the bass really want to be perpandicular to the floor. Cool if you like to slap like Les Claypool otherwise it isn't that great.

Mine don't want to kiss the floor.

Of course this is in the design. I guess it is called Thumb because they had slapper in their mind and many do have the bass perpendicular to the floor.

 

[lug]

Another solution a friend of mine came up with is called the Dead Cat Balancer (patent pending). It's a small noose that attaches to the back tail of your bass or the end of your strap and you simply mount a fresh dead cat to the noose end. You only need to drive down the road to find replacement cats once you current one dries out. Replacements are usually free.

 

[SoulReflection]

Another solution a friend of mine came up with is called the Dead Cat Balancer (patent pending). It's a small noose that attaches to the back tail of your bass or the end of your strap and you simply mount a fresh dead cat to the noose end. You only need to drive down the road to find replacement cats once you current one dries out. Replacements are usually free.

IMHO the makers of neck diving basses should include a years supply of replacements along with the normal case candy. During the initial year, one can collect more replacements and throw them in the freezer, just to be prepared. .

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Another solution a friend of mine came up with is called the Dead Cat Balancer (patent pending). It's a small noose that attaches to the back tail of your bass or the end of your strap and you simply mount a fresh dead cat to the noose end. You only need to drive down the road to find replacement cats once you current one dries out. Replacements are usually free.

For country music a dead possum is acceptable in place of the cat.

 

[BruceWane]

See, I work in engineering, and it's a cardinal mistake to reuse designs that suddenly don't work due to change in parameters. You have to adapt the design to reflect changes in parameters. If Warwick uses the same body size/type/strap position on their 6 string models, it's a design mistake.

I've previously played a neckthrough version of the thumb, it was a 4 string, and it balanced just fine. Wasn't exactly to my specifications (almost vertically) but it certainly fit the "at least 45 degree angle" criteria. If Warwick took the exact same design and just made it a 6 string, it's a mistake on their part. Imagine you take a car, put two additional wheels on it, make it so it's possible to mount them, but don't change basically anything else. Nobody driving a car would ever defend this design "solution".

If the only group involved in product development were engineers, we'd all have no choice but to play Steinbergers.

Product development for consumer goods always involves a whole, whole lot of the marketing department.

For better or worse, marketing is a huge part of commerce. Aesthetics are often more important than functionality for many consumers. You can argue all day that this is objectively wrong, but that's your viewpoint because you personally place far more value in functionality than you do aesthetics. A whole, whole lot of people do not think like you do - for them, how they look to other people is of the highest importance. Functionality is by far secondary, and they can find products that function well enough while still fulfilling their #1 priority. Style over function, although not necessarily to the complete exclusion of function.

And, for better or worse, the majority of people - by far - fall into this second category, preferring style over function. Even if they won't outwardly admit it 'cause some aspects of culture say vanity is bad while other aspects of culture celebrate it. So is it really any surprise that a lot of products seem to sacrifice some functionality in favor of style?

All you can do is be aware of this fact, and carefully evaluate products for how well they'll serve your preferences. Don't buy a Chevy Corvette if you're expecting to have a back seat.

 

[macmanlou]

Birdsong's Scott Beckwith's least expensive bass, the Shortbass, balances well. Advance this video to about 2:20 and see:

 

[-Asdfgh-]

If the only group involved in product development were engineers, we'd all have no choice but to play Steinbergers.

Product development for consumer goods always involves a whole, whole lot of the marketing department.

For better or worse, marketing is a huge part of commerce. Aesthetics are often more important than functionality for many consumers. You can argue all day that this is objectively wrong, but that's your viewpoint because you personally place far more value in functionality than you do aesthetics. A whole, whole lot of people do not think like you do - for them, how they look to other people is of the highest importance. Functionality is by far secondary, and they can find products that function well enough while still fulfilling their #1 priority. Style over function, although not necessarily to the complete exclusion of function.

And, for better or worse, the majority of people - by far - fall into this second category, preferring style over function. Even if they won't outwardly admit it 'cause some aspects of culture say vanity is bad while other aspects of culture celebrate it. So is it really any surprise that a lot of products seem to sacrifice some functionality in favor of style?

All you can do is be aware of this fact, and carefully evaluate products for how well they'll serve your preferences. Don't buy a Chevy Corvette if you're expecting to have a back seat.

My personal desire would be function first, with form following function. Often form following function, with some good industrial design can also be beautiful.

 

[SoulReflection]

My personal desire would be function first, with form following function. Often form following function, with some good industrial design can also be beautiful.

^This, exactly^, provided there is no neck dive....