Improvising jazz/blues vs. anything else

[10emmanuel]

I think that " mandatory bass lines " are found in the 0,001% of the songs. So I dont think that somebody should care so much, and that you could easily the exception of playing exactly like the song in those 0,001 % of the tunes, to everybody is happy.

 

[pepj]

I'm going for the feel of the song because that trumps everything. Even the most rigid BL wants it to feel good. I know what the chord pattern is...I'll know what the signature lick is and I'll know how to play with the drummer..who also has to approach the song the same way.
I try to make my lines fluid and they can't be out of keeping with the original bass line but they move.

I listened to my mates band recently whereby the bass player...and this is very common.. played note for note and it made the band sound very dull...and the cardinal sin in my book, they couldn't take the songs anywhere at all.
Although the tracks were played 'well' I was bored listening to it and would be totally bored playing it.
If music hasn't got any empathy what is the point, imv

My theory here is that the bass player doesn't listen to enough music to get their own style down.
You need to listen to and be inspired by music to be able to put your stamp on your own stuff/bass lines, imv.
Don't copy, steal and absord into a myriad of influences.

 

[LowendG]

I think that " mandatory bass lines " are found in the 0,001% of the songs. So I dont think that somebody should care so much, and that you could easily the exception of playing exactly like the song in those 0,001 % of the tunes, to everybody is happy.

I have 30+ tunes to learn in a week for a classic soul/funk kinda thing. I'd say less than 10 have bass parts that I really need to play exactly note for note in this setting (not a tribute band, just a slew of covers). And even then it's not the whole tune where the bass has gotta be exact--it's usually just a particular hook. Add to that the fact that we're doing all these tunes that were originally full on productions with horns, keys, percussion, BU singers, strings, you-name it, as a stripped-down guitar/bass/drums/sax quartet. I can guarantee you the other cats will also be "reinventing" their instrument's parts to fit the situation. You just adapt.

 

[tpa]

Recently, I had interest from someone looking for a new bass player for their cover band. I asked for a selection of songs they typically play, so I could see what they were expecting.

I suppose this is the background for posing your question. The opinion exchange about top level bass player in jazz is interesting and I have enjoyed (re-)listening to some of the phenomenal old masters - but the question as I read @Deleted member 409896 's original post addresses something else.

My experience:
In a "cover band" you will be expected to play the song quite close to the original.
Obtaining that can be quite satisfying to get this down, especially if you listen to the song as a group effort.
It does require some repetition and work but in return it also gives you the opportunity to realise what gives the song its character and feel.
Said "what" often follows the "less is more" rule. Especially in pop songs (e.g. the Suzi Quatro example).

The audience's approach to the music is often different. If you play at a party and the party is good then the music was fantastic almost no matter what you played and if the party was not good the music was boring, too loud - or even sucked. Mostly in cover bands the band makes the musical platform where the singer(s) has the most direct contact with audience, so whatever the band do or play should make a secure (predictable) platform for the singer(s). A dull party can be spiced up by a good front figure, and this is more likely to the singer than the bass player - but if the singer doesn't trust the bass player there is a problem.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Each gigs is a repeat payout for you time in learning....not playing.

Nice to see you back from a long hiatus!

 

[logdrum]

About memory, some musicians just can remember better even at an advanced age. That is why when exactness is critical i.e classical music, pit/musical or big band -> reading is very crucial.

Many phrases are similar to some degree or another. If on demand replication is important for you, create a lick or groove hook library and put it in a recallable list as notation, Nashville number, tab (cringe) or short audio clips list and develop a way to access that.

Back to jazz - bass line should support the chordal and melodic structure.

Case in point; La Vie en Rose

By a Frenchman and a New Yorker (This is to me is a really improvised bass line -- 16th motes, and lots of triplets used on occasion and so many inversions, use of double and triple stops and slides while comping the vocalist )
Audio only version from the Interplay album :



Young Indian Musicians doing it with a NOLA vibe - Bass can probably stretch is out some here but he is playing it really safe



Icy Scandi Opera Singer (Bass mostly playing Whole Notes ) I think Brad Mehldau actually played the Piano. The bass parts were obviously written out.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Nice to see you back from a long hiatus!

Cheers, nice to have the time to check in and catch up.

 

[bass12]

I think that " mandatory bass lines " are found in the 0,001% of the songs. So I dont think that somebody should care so much, and that you could easily the exception of playing exactly like the song in those 0,001 % of the tunes, to everybody is happy.

If by “mandatory bass line” you mean a line that is 100% faithful to the record then you might be right where most styles are concerned. But the OP was talking (originally at least) about improvising bass lines based on the songs’ chords, and that’s a very different thing from taking an established bass line and giving it your personal twist. There’s a whole lot of rock, soul, funk and disco where if you’re not playing the bass line you’re not really playing the song (unless everyone has agreed that you’re going to be playing a different arrangement).

 

[Bass Motifs]

Apart from signature riffs and feel, a lot is improvised and what we're used to hearing on high rotate was just one of the takes that made the final cut. So recreate the feel of the song including the key riffs but don't stress too much about mechanical reproduction. That's what machines are for.

Reminded me when I was younger I got some Bix recordings that had the multiple takes. Completely different. They always picked the ones with best vocals, so many of the gems are in the non-released takes. And even that was stiff compared to what live would have been like.

 

[LowendG]

So recreate the feel of the song including the key riffs but don't stress too much about mechanical reproduction.

Exactly--you'll know which parts are necessary hooks. They'll be obvious!
I haven't done a lot of covers in my 40+ years of playing - mostly original artists/bands - but lately I find myself with some work lined up and it's fun. I'll do it when it's genre-specific and has a focus/theme (in this case, classic soul/funk) and not just a hodgepodge. I learned quickly however what I don't want to put time into is a tribute band. I accepted one trib gig, and for sure, I learned it all note-for-note. Nailed the tones, everything. But afterwards, it just wasn't very satisfying. Sure some of it was challenging, but it was just mimicry. There was nothing of the live players in it--and we had some good people. No one came up and said, man, great rhythm section, you guys really groove great or whatever. The best compliment I think you can expect is "sounds exactly like the record". Honestly I think I'd rather DJ.

 

[scrubhelmet]

For you guys who play in cover bands in bars, how in the world do you do that? How do you have dozens of songs, ready to go?

Hi, as someone who came long from a funk and rock background, and recently learning jazz, I can relate to your dilemma.

Most people who play non-technical music (classical, jazz, heavy metal, etc.) care more about the overall feel of the music, and because of this, they wouldn't want the bass notes to interfere with the notes played by the other instruments such as voice, guitar, and piano. They just want the bass player to stick to root, thirds and fifths most of the time unless given a certain part of the song where they can shine. Additionally, the rhythm and tone of your bass can be totally different versus jazz; for example, in punk, you can increase the treble so your bass sounds metallic, then you can play with a pick, play continuously while maintaining a fast bouncy groove (check LAST ALLIANCE - Hekireki for an example or the band apart - Eric W. for examples).

Something I've realized while playing bass is that every note you play has a percussive weight. So if you want to safely introduce some activity or horizontal melodic movement with the bass line, it would be somewhere in the song with transitions. In compositions or bass lines I try to write from scratch, there are times I'd do this so I can cue the drummer towards the next part of the song. On the other hand, some genres such as funk play a lot on the percussive weight of the bass notes by making them bounce from one note to another (take for example Jamiroquai's Too Young To Die).

Another thing that adds to the feel are (funny how I recently discovered that Theolonius Monk also said this) the spaces between the notes. Take for example the two licks in Feel Good Inc. by Gorillaz; the last notes give you a hanging feeling. Another groovy example is Thundercat's bass line on Mac Miller's What's The Use.

The dozens of songs most of us know usually come from growing up, listening to them, and being accustomed not only to the music but to the structure of non-technical music. Most of them follow the verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure, and in some instances, the chord progression is the same all throughout the song. If we need to learn a new song, it wouldn't be too difficult for us because we're already familiar with the structure. In some occasions, people would also play certain genres better than others depending on which genre/s they listened to while growing up.

I realized it's a bit the same for jazz, but what initially weirded me out were the chord progressions used, like the 251s and circle of fourths. Later on, I discover that I'd find these in other jazz standards as well, except probably for the modal ones. So while the same chord progressions might be used in non-technical genres, most jazz standards have chord progressions on their own. These chord progressions do exist outside of jazz, such as Maroon 5's Sunday Morning (251) and Gloria Gaynor's I Will Survive (circle of fourths), but these are mostly exceptions than the norm.

 

[Bass Motifs]

Hi, as someone who came long from a funk and rock background, and recently learning jazz, I can relate to your dilemma.

Most people who play non-technical music (classical, jazz, heavy metal, etc.) care more about the overall feel of the music, and because of this, they wouldn't want the bass notes to interfere with the notes played by the other instruments such as voice, guitar, and piano. They just want the bass player to stick to root, thirds and fifths most of the time unless given a certain part of the song where they can shine. Additionally, the rhythm and tone of your bass can be totally different versus jazz; for example, in punk, you can increase the treble so your bass sounds metallic, then you can play with a pick, play continuously while maintaining a fast bouncy groove (check LAST ALLIANCE - Hekireki for an example or the band apart - Eric W. for examples).

Something I've realized while playing bass is that every note you play has a percussive weight. So if you want to safely introduce some activity or horizontal melodic movement with the bass line, it would be somewhere in the song with transitions. In compositions or bass lines I try to write from scratch, there are times I'd do this so I can cue the drummer towards the next part of the song. On the other hand, some genres such as funk play a lot on the percussive weight of the bass notes by making them bounce from one note to another (take for example Jamiroquai's Too Young To Die).

Another thing that adds to the feel are (funny how I recently discovered that Theolonius Monk also said this) the spaces between the notes. Take for example the two licks in Feel Good Inc. by Gorillaz; the last notes give you a hanging feeling. Another groovy example is Thundercat's bass line on Mac Miller's What's The Use.

The dozens of songs most of us know usually come from growing up, listening to them, and being accustomed not only to the music but to the structure of non-technical music. Most of them follow the verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure, and in some instances, the chord progression is the same all throughout the song. If we need to learn a new song, it wouldn't be too difficult for us because we're already familiar with the structure. In some occasions, people would also play certain genres better than others depending on which genre/s they listened to while growing up.

I realized it's a bit the same for jazz, but what initially weirded me out were the chord progressions used, like the 251s and circle of fourths. Later on, I discover that I'd find these in other jazz standards as well, except probably for the modal ones. So while the same chord progressions might be used in non-technical genres, most jazz standards have chord progressions on their own. These chord progressions do exist outside of jazz, such as Maroon 5's Sunday Morning (251) and Gloria Gaynor's I Will Survive (circle of fourths), but these are mostly exceptions than the norm.

Correct me if I'm wrong but even the cadence in Mamma Mia is a 251! Bass line stuck out to me as a kid, and when I first started playing I thought the bass player was adventurous starting the 5 chord on it's 5th as a walk up to the root of the 5th. Playing it on keys it sits under the hands as a 251. Sorry for the digression.

 

[brianrost]

Since some seem to be confused regarding my original question, I'll re-state it slightly here: How am I supposed to memorize dozens of established basslines, and then reproduce them on demand? It seems like an impossible task, and I don't know how to approach it.

Simple answer: You sit down and learn the songs one by one.

I’ve known players with perfect pitch who can literally hear a song once and can play multiple parts from memory. I’ve got a weak ear, so it takes me longer but a typical pop tune I can learn an entire night of music for a sub gig in a week, but not note for note. I sit down with some transcription software (loops and slows tempo) and may make a full chart if it’s complicated enough.

I don’t use charts or cheat sheets on stage though, it’s all from memory. If I play the song enough times on stage I can recall it easily. If I only play it once, I often can’t recall it a year or two later unless it’s something pretty simple. In a steady working band with a limited repertoire, say fewer than 100 songs, playing the book once or twice a week really drills it in.

For me the hardest tunes are funk tunes where there is usually a complex repeated line. Even then, funk lines typically use the same notes…root, fifth, flat 7th, flat 3rd with some passing tones…it’s the rhythms and hits that are harder to memorize. I don’t play prog rock or fusion, but I’m sure it would be even more difficult to memorize.

Where I get myself in trouble is when I have to learn off recordings with no rehearsal but when I show up for the gig, the band deviates from the arrangements, sometimes playing the wrong chords, etc. Having both the original recording as well as a recording of the band playing it live really helps.

P.S. I was in a band that lasted seven years and played a Sunday night residency. The guitarist, drummer and I rehearsed every Monday night. We would go over trainwrecks from the night before and then work in new tunes. The goal was to add two or three new tunes every week. We didn’t always reach that goal but we did end up with well over 400 songs in our book that would be called randomly every Sunday. So on average at least one new tune per week. We had two saxophones on the gig and never rehearsed with them, they would make up their parts on the spot if they didn’t already know the tune. Thirty years later, I still remember dozens of the songs.

 

[Deleted member 409896]

I sat down and spent some time in my last practice session unraveling some pop & rock tunes.

For example Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Three Steps." I've always liked this song.

It's been around a while, so the chord changes seem well-documented. At least the roots - no one seems to bother with chord qualities (dom 7th, minor, etc.) which is fine, I can make some educated guesses.

Apparently, a lot of people get the bassline to "Mustang Sally" wrong, at least if they're trying to follow the original Wilson Pickett version. I won't, because I found 2 or 3 YT vids discussing this, ha.

It went more or less the same with several other songs.

One I intend to work on next is "Black Velvet." It's dead simple for much of its length - whole lotta eighth notes (with a swing feel, which I like a lot. Some transcriptions notate it as staccato eighths, but pretty sure it's actually just swing). There are some very cool arpeggios.

Apparently the original "Black Velvet" recording was done with a synth bass. I always assumed it was fretless BG, TIL.

I feel a lot better about all this than I did at the start of the thread. It seems do-able now. I think I'll work through at least 1 or 2 pop/rock basslines in each of my next several practice sessions. Make myself some chord charts maybe. I won't necessarily need those forever, especially for some of the less-harmonically-complex tunes, which is a lot of them. Then I only have to find a band in need of a bassist that is closer to home, not in the next town over.

 

[mambo4]

Jive1 has a good post about learning lots of material

 

[wboyd68]

I have it on good authority that this means you don't gig much. Sorry for the bad news!

I'm happy to say that I continue to gig regularly with my current original band-I've just never made any money!

 

[Deleted member 409896]

Jive1 has a good post about learning lots of material

Thanks, informative.

 

[Bass Motifs]

That is a great post from Jive1.

I think in terms of chord progressions and like to understand what's happening "theoretically". Helps remember the tune, give you a framework for your library of grooves and fills, and compensates for my average ear. Whatever you need to do to get there is ok in my book.

A few other common chord progressions to add to Jive1's list:

1. R&B style where major chords are stacked on the minor pentatonic intervals: I, bIII, IV - for example C major, E flat major, F major. Could go back to I, or continue via bVII, or to V, bVII, or sometimes via bVI like Gimme Some Lovin. Or go around I, bIII, bVII. I think a few Beyonce tunes do that.

2. Related but more riffy: I, bIII, bVII, IV. Super common.

3. Three types of IV-V cadence progressions built around tonic, minor chord, then IV, V. These use the three available minor diatonic chords as the second chord in the sequence:

(A) the do-wap sequence Jive1 mentioned of I, vi, IV, V. Very common.

(B) More soulful version of I, ii, IV, V. Gives a plagal flavour as II and IV are closely related.

(C) Chord III tunes, common in folk. I, iii, IV, V. I love tunes with chord iii. Watch out for substitution on the major III too. Quite common, even going to IV, V, rather than as secondary dominant to vi.

4. Nested fourths. Hard to explain but super easy to play. For example: I, IV, bVII, bIII. So basically a starting note, then a fourth up. Go down two frets and repeat. If something sounds cool with lots of apparent leading voice movement in the bass, it could be this. Make the first chord minor and it sounds even better. Sometimes found in bridge sections. Try the minor kick off and see if you think of the same tune as me

5. Tennessee Whiskey. I, ii, IV. Yup, should be able get that one. Break out the ii minor pentatonic and IV major pentatonic for the fills. They're the same thing. Sound pro in one easy step.

That's a segue into the bit I've been working on lately of how to improvise lines and fills across those patterns. On the R&B sequences, pedal phrases or fills using the minor pentatonic of chord I will overlap a lot of the other chords as major pentatonics. Can extend chord I as a minor 9th for example, adding the D to the c minor pentatonic to fit with chord VII. On chord bVI I tend to use major pentatonics, which closely fit. Also can be used in same pattern on bVII which often follows. If bVI is moving to V then I tend to do minor pentatonics on both, but favouring the fifth and octave.

As a rule of thumb for R&B it's usually minor pentatonic (and blues scale) on chords I and V, and major pentatonics on the rest. Ends up being similar notes.

On plagal flavoured tunes there's heaps of scope overlapping major pentatonics. And with tunes like Angie and Wild Horses you can do that while also using minor pentatonics on the "sharp" chords like the secondary dominant to the relative minor.

I tend to avoid minor pentatonic on chord IV (or at least the flat third degree, unless it's minor iv of course), and use either major or minor on chord V depending on flavour needed.

Walk ups and walk downs are a choice between diatonic or chromatic. Flavour to suit. Understanding the tonality and key centre helps with the diatonics. Just scales really.

Probably made this sound more complex than it is, but opening up my hands with major pentatonics especially has been a game changer for me. It's helped unshackle me from rote learned phrases, and not getting stuck in the box.

Try out the chords on keyboard, it's easier to see and hear in the first instance. Trying to imagine the whole chord while just playing one note is not always easy until you build up your chord bank memory.

Another pointer from Dan Hawkins: Try thinking of fills as rhythms, and the notes will find themselves.

 

[scrubhelmet]

It's been around a while, so the chord changes seem well-documented. At least the roots - no one seems to bother with chord qualities (dom 7th, minor, etc.) which is fine, I can make some educated guesses.

I feel a lot better about all this than I did at the start of the thread. It seems do-able now. I think I'll work through at least 1 or 2 pop/rock basslines in each of my next several practice sessions. Make myself some chord charts maybe. I won't necessarily need those forever, especially for some of the less-harmonically-complex tunes, which is a lot of them.

Yeah, pop and rock would seem like child's play if you're coming from jazz. Most of the time, the only important thing to know is if a chord is major or minor, because then you can make educated guesses if you want to improvise a lick. Knowing the key of the song also helps.

You'll need to make up for other stuff though. Every genre has its own feel and groove, and once you get them into your system, you'd find yourself being immersed into the music while playing. The song will begin to play you, not the other way around.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

My theory here is that the bass player doesn't listen to enough music to get their own style down.
You need to listen to and be inspired by music to be able to put your stamp on your own stuff/bass lines, imv.
Don't copy, steal and absord into a myriad of influences.

I've found an interesting (to me) video where Snarky Puppy Keyboardist Justin Stanton Hears Dua Lipa For The First Time, but he only hears drums and vocals.

The video shows (a little bit of) Justin's approach to harmonizing that (new to him) song and arranging it for different instruments.
It's interesting to see his (maybe, redacted) a true musician's approach to a new type of song, style.