Improvising jazz/blues vs. anything else

[Whousedtoplay]

Yeah, pop and rock would seem like child's play if you're coming from jazz.

Yes, that's one of my pet-peeves with Jazz musicians, including the "wannabe" jazz musicians.
And, there they tend to fall off their "pedestal."

Every genre has its own feel and groove, and once you get them into your system, you'd find yourself being immersed into the music while playing.

Amen to that!

 

[turf3]

Certainly there's a mentality out there amongst jazz players that rock and roll is easy, so they don't need to follow the conventions of rock. That's incorrect, of course.

But that's a different subject from whether rock and roll bass parts need to be reproduced exactly as a "reference" recording has them; it's also a different subject from whether all the parts have to be memorized.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Certainly there's a mentality out there amongst jazz players that rock and roll is easy, so they don't need to follow the conventions of rock. That's incorrect, of course.

I think I have (eventually) figured out about our disagreement.

If you take The Real Book and decide to play ANY SONG from it, you don't need to have a bass-line transcribed and played note-by-note.
Just some knowledge of walking bass and knowledge of Harmony (understanding about chords and how they work together.)
Some pop songs required more specific notes.

For ex.: Michael McDonald - I Keep Forgettin'

 

[scrubhelmet]

Yes, that's one of my pet-peeves with Jazz musicians, including the "wannabe" jazz musicians.
And, there they tend to fall off their "pedestal."

I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant or sitting on a pedestal. That wasn't my intention. I just wanted to relate the difference between jazz and rock/pop/funk since OP mentioned that the first thing that he learned was jazz, for a year, and that he's more familiar with just opening the real book, knowing the melody and chords, and making his own walking bass line from scratch.

I had an opposite experience with OP; I learned a lot of packaged music first before diving into jazz, and it has been really difficult for me especially during the beginning. I feel that I need to exert more effort thinking about the next note and chord, listening to everyone, thinking about the melody, and moving around the fretboard compared to packaged music. Plus the chord progressions are different, the keys change from time to time, etc. But I'm happy to have learned stuff in jazz that are transferable to packaged music; i. e. in my new funk band, they asked me to improvise a lick and solo over C7-Cm7 for one of their original songs, and I cycled over C minor scale, C Mixolydian and C Dorian, and my bandmates were happy with what I did. Practicing and performing walking bass lines also made it more comfortable for my hands to navigate all over the fretboard.

Certainly there's a mentality out there amongst jazz players that rock and roll is easy, so they don't need to follow the conventions of rock. That's incorrect, of course.

Well at least in OP's experience, it's the opposite. XD

 

[turf3]

I started out as a rock and roll saxophone player, became a jazz saxophone player, and in the last ten years I have taken up the upright bass, which I play in a variety of contexts (but no rock and roll). So I was maybe less pre-loaded to regard rock and roll as "so simple you don't have to work at it" - but if anything, my experiences playing old time and bluegrass bass certainly have disabused me of any lingering feelings like that. It's popular to sneer at "root and fifth over and over" but let me tell you, playing a small number of notes EXACTLY at the RIGHT time with the RIGHT note length, attack, decay, and tone quality is a VERY TOUGH proposition. I hear this when electric bassists converting to upright come from rock and roll to the bluegrass jams and all their notes just kind of ooze out into the room, generally not at quite the right time, and then they start doing walk-ups and walk-downs for every chord change so it's like yelling "CHORD CHANGE NOW!" over and over.

Every form has its own requirements, and it's difficult to play any of them correctly.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

a small number of notes EXACTLY at the RIGHT time with the RIGHT note length, attack, decay, and tone quality is a VERY TOUGH proposition. I hear this when electric bassists converting to upright come from rock and roll to the bluegrass jams and all their notes just kind of ooze out into the room, generally not at quite the right time

I like an excellent bass/Double bass player, Tal Mashiach, currently from GTO Trio.
Here is (young) Tal on the bass:



Here is Tal on the Double bass:

What do you think about his conversion?

 

[turf3]

I like an excellent bass/Double bass player, Tal Mashiach, currently from GTO Trio.
Here is (young) Tal on the bass:



Here is Tal on the Double bass:

What do you think about his conversion?

He's a fine double-bassist. Much of the tune you linked to is not straight time keeping, but there's a long section in the middle where he keeps time and he plays that beautifully as well.

This is NOT the kind of amateur musician I was talking about.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Much of the tune you linked

It' not just "THAT ONE TUNE" that I liked.
Here is a "fresh" track from their new album.
Excellent.

This is NOT the kind of amateur musician I was talking about.

I used to play a lot of songs just by listening once or twice, figuring out the Groove, Mood, Chord changes, etc..., but...
Recently, with my "nowhere-to-rush" age, I've adopted a slightly different approach (not for everyone.)

What if the original performer asks me to play this/that song.
And there is no of, "I can try to play this way," or "Give me at least the chord chart and I'll try," etc...
Let's grab Michael Jackson's "You rock my world" with exhaustively simple bass-line.
Even a "It's-my-first-week-with-the-bass" beginner bass player can play it, but...
MJ would hire only VERY PRO bass players. Why?
I've checked a live version of that song.
The bass player plays the same simple notes.

How would you present the rendition of that bass-line to MJ? (It's a rhetorical question.)
How would you persuade MJ that you are "the one" (out of thousands) to play that song live with him?

 

[Deleted member 409896]

Certainly there's a mentality out there amongst jazz players that rock and roll is easy, so they don't need to follow the conventions of rock. That's incorrect, of course.

But that's a different subject from whether rock and roll bass parts need to be reproduced exactly as a "reference" recording has them; it's also a different subject from whether all the parts have to be memorized.

and that is the exact reason I started this thread: I realized I could not apply the same skills from one context to the other, at least not in the same way.

I've never played any rock and roll before. Never had the opportunity (to play with others, at least). For me, this is new territory.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

and that is the exact reason I started this thread: I realized I could not apply the same skills from one context to the other, at least not in the same way.

I've never played any rock and roll before. Never had the opportunity (to play with others, at least). For me, this is new territory.

It's never too late to look "funny" as to "enter a new territory."
It's about your statement.

"I am not interested in robotically reproducing a recording. They can program a synthesizer, if they want that.
Probably why I got into jazz in the first place."

 

[dave_p]

Skipping to the reply. Too much pedantry here. To answer the question, you can mostly get away with fair approximations as long as you make sure you nail the hooks or signature parts. As far as learning/memorizing all the songs goes, seeing as you have a background in jazz, you have heard and played more than enough harmonic structures to handle most rock, pop and blues. It’s simpler versions on the same. 2/5/1s and 1/6/2/5s and 1/4/5s. You should be able to figure most out by ear. And once you have the skeletons you can flesh it out as needed.

 

[brianrost]

I am skeptical of going through a memorized routine blindly, without any harmonic reference.

Noone is suggesting that. I listen to the song…what’s the key, what’s the chords at least at a triad level. Then I think about what those chords imply. There’s a reason people talk about 1-4-5 when referring to 12-bar blues. That means in a given key, you only need to play the I chord, the IV chord and the V chord. Once I know that I can play it in other keys because I understand the harmonic structure.

When you play your jazz tunes, do you think of the chords by name or by their relationship to the key (i.e. by numbers, such as the Nashville number system)? For instance if someone calls blues or rhythm changes you already know the form and just need to know the key. Being able to transpose like that is important if there are vocalists involved. Many will ask to play in a key different than what's on a particular recording or in a Real Book.

I can go on a stage and if a song I don’t know is called and the BL tells me the key and then says “the verse goes 1-4-1-4-6-5-4-1, the chorus goes 5-4-1 and there’s a bridge that goes 3-6-4-5” I know all I need to play some sort of bass line. Depending on the genre of the song, there’s numerous cliche lines I can apply until I’m comfortable with the form then I can start improvising a line if I feel like it. If I already know the song, I just need to know what key it will be played in because I’ve memorized the harmonic structure.

 

[Deleted member 409896]

Noone is suggesting that.

*Almost* no one, we do have 1 or maybe even 2 advocates of the bass player as organic playback device. There's always one in every crowd.

Copy on the rest. I don't have nearly that much stuff memorized, I need to write things down more and it should come though. Thanks!

 

[Pacman]

I don't think anyone seriously expects note for note playback from any musician. But what they *do* expect is that the people on the bandstand know how the part goes. That comes from experience, from listening, transcribing, and playing. Knowing different versions of the song (take "Heard It Through The Grapvine, for instance - there are *3* distinct versions of that song, and what one band does dictates which version the bass player pulls from).

One of my favorite comments ever made to me was when another musician on the band said to me "I always love it when you're on the gig, because I get to hear how the bass part *really* goes."

 

[Bass Motifs]

I find a lot of the bass play-along videos weird. Sometimes you can see the player is reading from sheet music (like when it reflects in their glasses). It's useful to get a handle on the song and insights into the original player's approach, but I've always thought over literal copying is a bit creepy.

Can't recall if it was mentioned above, but studio recorded tracks have to be a bit conservative. The same players would have broadened it out in live performance. So copying a recorded track to use on live performance should be approached with a pinch of salt. I used to play a lot of soul numbers, but the bass lines are often quite sparse or "carefully placed" for the recording, and can sounded a bit lifeless live if you don't fill them out a bit. I always try to find a live version of the song when getting a new track down. Thank you YT!!!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

the bass lines are often quite sparse or "carefully placed" for the recording, and can sounded a bit lifeless live if you don't fill them out

I will take your comment with a "pinch of salt."
That's why those notes are "carefully placed" to be there. I have figured out that, "usually," that "desire" to fill out those quite sparse notes or "empty space" of the studio bass-lines are linked to numerous causes that are rarely associated with musicality and/or MUSICIANSHIP.

(It's a slightly different discussion about the causes of having the need to add more (noodling) extra notes while playing live. One of the reasons could be the player's insecurity (for this/that reason.)



N.B. I agree with Pacman's statement in the comment just above yours, "I don't think anyone seriously expects note for note playback from any musician."
But, it's not bad to know (or memorize) the original bass-line: its mood, its tone, the rhythmic pattern/s (as a template), accents, nuances, fill-ins, etc...

What if a guitar player or a drummer, or a keyboard player starts also "changing this, adding that" - and not once, or twice - during the live concert?
I'm not against some subtle changes but anything more - you are rearranging the song/track and every member of the band should be aware of it.
Unless, "nobody cares about your bass-line."

 

[retslock]

I'd like to see/hear examples where a bass line is NOT a part of the composition.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Thank you for a good question.
What is the bass note?
"In music theory, the bass note of a chord or sonority is the lowest note played or notated. If there are multiple voices it is the note played or notated in the lowest voice."
What instrument can play the bass-line?

"In unaccompanied solo performance, basslines may simply be played in the lower register of any instrument while melody and/or further accompaniment is provided in the middle or upper register."

Now, do we hear any keys or guitar playing chords on that track?
Do they have the lowest note, the lowest voice?
Once again, thank you for a good question.

Now, please tell me if you can find the bass-line of the following song.

 

[retslock]

Thank you for a good question.
What is the bass note?
"In music theory, the bass note of a chord or sonority is the lowest note played or notated. If there are multiple voices it is the note played or notated in the lowest voice."
What instrument can play the bass-line?

"In unaccompanied solo performance, basslines may simply be played in the lower register of any instrument while melody and/or further accompaniment is provided in the middle or upper register."

Now, do we hear any keys or guitar playing chords on that track?
Do they have the lowest note, the lowest voice?
Once again, thank you for a good question.

Now, please tell me if you can find the bass-line of the following song.

Unfortunately the video you posted has been restricted. I can't see it - probably a zoning or copyright issue. I live in Australia and we often have to deal with this kind of restriction.
I would suggest that the lowest note of a chord is not necessarily a bass line. It is of course the lowest note but it could easily be in a higher register - much higher in fact than a bass instrument. The nomenclature exist to specify sonic regions - frequencies that are located in the sonic spectrum identified as bass. The right hand on a piano for instance may play the lowest note of the existing chord but it could not be described as bass.
Context is everything.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I would suggest that the lowest note of a chord is not necessarily a bass line.

What is a bass-line?

"A bass line is the lowest-pitched part of a piece of music, typically played on a bass instrument such as the double bass or bass guitar.
Bass lines can vary in style and complexity depending on the genre of music."