• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Income inequality "solutions"

Status
Not open for further replies.
#221
spade2you said:
One hates to tread the thin line between good intentions and eugenics. Then ya see a crack baby in the NICU and it doesn't seem so bad. :confused::(

As it stands, I don't think anyone has the grapes to do anything remotely close to that. I think the kicker about all of these social problems is that nobody is going to do anything and it will keep perpetuating.

Here's an interesting article about an entire family that has caused a heck of a lot of destruction over the years.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Click to expand...

No eugenics here. Just trying to provide the best for any kid.

But not only the crack baby but reading the paper sometimes. There are a lot of people who shouldn't be allowed to have a dog. But the have a kid.

Not being able to provide a safe clean healthful environment for a child is abuse. Preventing child abuse is a worthy goal.
 
#222
BawanaRik said:
Requiring a training program and a license pre-birth would help a lot with this.

If a person can't pass a test about basic household running and child raising things they shouldn't be creating a child.

Requiring a family, food, shelter and the other things a child needs would go a long way to cutting down on any alleged inequalities.
Click to expand...

This doesn't fit with your mantra of letting people do what they want. Not at all. Controlling a person's biological functions is much worse than taxing money they made from the system in order to fund the system.
 
#224
deeptubes said:
A lot easier to climb the mountain when one starts halfway up.
Click to expand...

Revisiting your post.

It's easy to say that they simply got handed everything. A lot of my pre-pharmacy courses were with the med students. I was always humbled by their ability and drive.

It's easier to say/think that a doctor's kid simply starts up the mountain halfway up. It's more like they're showing up to the mountain with better gear and better training.

If racing up a mountain is the goal, I fear I have an unfair advantage for just about everyone here, especially since the former racers on TB were more the sprinter type. ;) I have an insanely good road bike. I'm light and have a very good power to weight ratio. I spend a lot of time doing long and intense efforts when training. Even if I start a little behind you, it won't be a fair fight.
 
#226
fisticuffs said:
Well many years ago the tax rate DID help make the profits trickle down to the employees. The rate was so high that business invested in their business and their employees to avoid it. Not sure how that would work today with so many off-shore tax havens and loopholes. We could tax capital gains the same as labor. I don't understand why that is not already the case. We could as consumers do a better job at this whole capitalism thing. It's difficult to avoid the lure of bargain basement prices but if more people chose quality and companies who did the right thing it would do a lot of the work for us. Instead we shop at Walmart for disposable slave labor plastic. No one is going to win idn that situation except for the Waltons. Walmarts profit margins get brought up a lot as an example of how we can't do anything about it. To me Walmarts pathetic margins make me think it's not a very well run company. But undercutting everyone is the business plan so fair wages will never happen there.

I'm glad someone on the other side actually sees this as a problem for once. Generally that's not the case. Everyone loses in the race to the bottom. Supply Side economics has a 30 year track record of failure. once we understand those things we can figure out how to fix it.
Click to expand...

I recommend "Who Stole the American Dream" by Hedrick Smith which breaks this down very well and "Income Inequality" by Joseph Stiglitz.... Both books should be must reads for any thinking person.
 
#227
spade2you said:
Revisiting your post.

It's easy to say that they simply got handed everything. A lot of my pre-pharmacy courses were with the med students. I was always humbled by their ability and drive.

It's easier to say/think that a doctor's kid simply starts up the mountain halfway up. It's more like they're showing up to the mountain with better gear and better training.

If racing up a mountain is the goal, I fear I have an unfair advantage for just about everyone here, especially since the former racers on TB were more the sprinter type. ;) I have an insanely good road bike. I'm light and have a very good power to weight ratio. I spend a lot of time doing long and intense efforts when training. Even if I start a little behind you, it won't be a fair fight.
Click to expand...

If I ever get back to a reasonable weight, my 150lbs and 20lb bike will take that bet. PA steeps though. :D

Doing my core right now (hate). Tomorrow is rollers (hate).
 
#228
DerHoggz said:
It is tough when every hour is spent in a desperate attempt to provide the basics for those children.

"In 2003, children under the age of 18 accounted for 39% of the homeless population."
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

That would be the difference between can't and won't. Those kids probably deserve it though.
Click to expand...

Nice try. I never said that anyone should be homeless. And I never said that anyone deserved awful parents or the consequences of awful parents' actions. I never said that there should be no social programs in place for those who need them. I only implied (and will now state clearly) that if there were less awful, dumb, ignorant, or lazy parents there would be LESS need for those social programs, less poor children, less homeless children, etc. Those programs will never go away and I am fine with that. I think I did state clearly that some will always slip through the cracks and there need to be plans in place to take care of them. But not all of those taking advantage of social programs today have slipped through the cracks. Some either chose not to participate in this game of life, or made really bad choices over and over and over again. Children are innocent. They choose nothing about their fate until at least their teenage years.

For instance, someone in my family was on unemployment for close to two years. You will NEVER guess what happened. About four weeks before his unemployment dried up. He found a JOB! (Who would have thought?) And it was even a job in his field! AMAZING! It's a MIRACLE! Some people ride the system. To imply that the vast vast majority of people on social programs are truly trying to do better and doing EVERYTHING possible to create a better life for THEMSELVES is ridiculous. I own rental property. I see it every day. I have even offered work to guys out playing basketball in the driveway. I got a couple "Hell no" and one guy who said "If I work for you it will mess up my disability cuz I know you ain't hiring me without paperwork." (He said as he was playing basketball...... on disability......) Social programs rarely pull anyone out of poverty. They don't increase pride, integrity, drive, or net worth. In my view, they literally keep people down. Now, if those programs came with incentives (in other words training opportunities and DEADLINES for getting OFF of those programs) we might have something to talk about. But as they stand they are complete failures in almost every regard. They are designed to keep people in check and barely alive.

Care to try again with less melodrama? Or at least post a pic of your crocodile tears to go along with your accusations of insensitivity. :bawl:

;)
 
#230
DerHoggz said:
If I ever get back to a reasonable weight, my 150lbs and 20lb bike will take that bet. PA steeps though. :D

Doing my core right now (hate). Tomorrow is rollers (hate).
Click to expand...

Doing muscle tension intervals tonight, simulating long and steep grades. Core tomorrow.

Hopefully you don't get a flat on the rollers. Did that Saturday and about threw my bike when I found out that my tube had an insanely short stem. No clue which rims it would actually fit. As I fought the Campy rims to get the next tube in, I found a valve extender on the shelf behind my rollers and about threw my bike! I've heard we might get some 40 degree weather in a week or two. I hope to do that and not ride indoors more than I have to.
 
#231
By the way, my wife (a doctor) grew up lower middle class. Her parents run a tiny hardware store in a tiny town. She grew up working that store while her friends went to the beach. She took on loans to go to school and worked the whole time up until residency. We're still somewhere around $141K on them. If one more person says to my wife "Oh, you're a doctor. Dang, girl, you got it made!" I will personally punch them in the neck.

But, again, that's kind of what I'm talking about. She took on those loans, and worked her butt off through school for the very purpose of seeing to it that her children would not have to work in a hardware store their entire childhood. Now she works more hours than anyone should. She is upstairs right now doing charts on her laptop. One generation of sacrifice (mine and hers) will make all the difference in the world to our children. She thought ahead about someone other than herself. And I don't even really see her as a hero. I see her as doing what she was always supposed to do. As did my parents and her parents. As did theirs. Again, a generation or two of taking it on the chin and everyone else down the line can be set. Seems worth it to me. Why do so many others have such a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept? To me, this is the only real solution to income inequality (on a massive scale). But, again, I'm still holding out hope there's another plan. Taxes simply won't do it. Not permanently anyway. That may prop up a few for a while. But it doesn't raise anyone out of poverty long term.
 
#236
spade2you said:
Revisiting your post.

It's easy to say that they simply got handed everything. A lot of my pre-pharmacy courses were with the med students. I was always humbled by their ability and drive.

It's easier to say/think that a doctor's kid simply starts up the mountain halfway up. It's more like they're showing up to the mountain with better gear and better training.

If racing up a mountain is the goal, I fear I have an unfair advantage for just about everyone here, especially since the former racers on TB were more the sprinter type. ;) I have an insanely good road bike. I'm light and have a very good power to weight ratio. I spend a lot of time doing long and intense efforts when training. Even if I start a little behind you, it won't be a fair fight.
Click to expand...

Obviously, I was speaking figuratively. Let me elaborate using some stereotypes.

rich son:
First job: asst VP of ________ at daddy's company; wanted to go to Yale didn't have Yale grades so daddy wrote a check; doesn't cook, clean, or do laundry - has a white person answering the door and phone, a black person cooking, cleaning and doing laundry, and a brown person maintaining the estate grounds (his entitlements); wants to start a business, daddy gives him one; 16th birthday got a Porsche and a credit card.

poor son:
First job: flipping burgers; wanted to go to a state university, can't afford it, has to settle for community college, can't finish due to having to work full time because he and his family can't afford dirt; cooks, cleans, and does laundry for himself and siblings because parents are always working; dreams of opening a business but cannot scrape together startup costs; 16th birthday got a one month bus pass and a workplace coupon for a double cheeseburger value meal.


Rich kids have huge advantages over those who are lacking. These kids grow up having everything they want, thinking they deserve it. They then take over their daddy's businesses with that same mindset and the result is people who are ridiculously overpaid to sit on a high chair behind a one-ton oak desk, when they decide to go to the office.

Big difference between being privileged and feeling privileged. Hell, I'm privileged. My mom retired as a Senior Exec VP form Bank of America. My dad was a tv producer. I live in the million dollar family house a block from the beach, and my mom is essentially giving it to me and my wife. However, I'm not expectant. I'm not demanding. I am lucky, and I am grateful.
 
#237
two fingers said:
One generation of sacrifice (mine and hers) will make all the difference in the world to our children. She thought ahead about someone other than herself. And I don't even really see her as a hero. I see her as doing what she was always supposed to do. As did my parents and her parents. As did theirs. Again, a generation or two of taking it on the chin and everyone else down the line can be set.
Click to expand...

Same. Great-grandparents were farm laborers and workhouse orphans, grandparents janitors and miners, parents started out as office clerks. I'm an engineer and my wife is a teacher. This stuff takes time. Don't break the chain.

Not that I have any objection to some degree of inheritance tax either. There can be a reasonable compromise between "doing right by the people I am responsible for bringing into the world and therefore by the world I have brought them into" and "unearned income is bad".
 
#238
I haven't read the whole thing, fdeck nailed it on pg1.

You want to improve the lot of poor workers? Tax them less but pay for more of the things everyone uses that is paid for with the collective tax take. News flash, the rich pay higher tax rates.

It's called a welfare state.
 
#239
We need a bunch of things. These few suggestions would certainly help us along the way if implemented effectively.

1. guidelines set in place outlining a maximum wage inequity limit - so if the higher ups want to make more everyone has to be payed out more to a minimum of a living wage - and incentives to exceed those guidelines, huge penalties for not meeting them.

2. monies circulating throughout the economy - not just set in an account - this means monetary reform - community currencies, barter systems, and monies that lose value over time that have an incentive to be spent.

3. a return to domestic manufacture and smaller scale agriculture - these will provide jobs and honest livelihoods for many people

4. true tax incentive programs - complete write offs for home improvements, business retrofits, and beautification - money will move around the economy more.

5. incentives to apprentice workers in trades - have guidelines that require a certain percentage apprenticing staff or trained red seal/ticketed journeypersons to qualify for certain government and other important projects

6. local trade incentives, and end to free trade, and other 'isolationist' policies that would keep monies moving around where they're spent.

7. An end to private lenders financing government expenditures. If the Federal Government were to issue its own currency and debt oncemore, its policies would reflect a genuine urge to lower debt. Everyone questions deficit spending but nobody questions the interest paid to private lenders for no good reason. Public expenditures are open to public scrutiny but private institutions hold no accountability for their actions as long as they're profitable.

8. Sharia style mortgages - where the lender owns a share of the property and the borrower works off that share. It would then be in the lender's interest to keep it maintained and upgraded as the value would be higher. (I'm not a fan of all Sharia law...but they got it right with their lending)

9. Carbon Taxes and Pollution taxes - accounting for the real cost of production - if we had to pay for the real costs of production, we would all be buying more durable, locally sourced goods made from natural materials that benefit people in more ways than one.

10. A move from GDP (Gross Domestic Profit) back to GNP (Gross National Product) - to allot for the profitability of the home country, giving less value to Multinationalism.


Not that the concept of a Nation State is entirely helpful or relevant to the issues at hand, but if there were some form of general neighbourhood/geographic importance we could take a step back to more honest dealings and working together.
 
#240
two fingers said:
By the way, my wife (a doctor) grew up lower middle class. Her parents run a tiny hardware store in a tiny town. She grew up working that store while her friends went to the beach. She took on loans to go to school and worked the whole time up until residency. We're still somewhere around $141K on them. If one more person says to my wife "Oh, you're a doctor. Dang, girl, you got it made!" I will personally punch them in the neck.

But, again, that's kind of what I'm talking about. She took on those loans, and worked her butt off through school for the very purpose of seeing to it that her children would not have to work in a hardware store their entire childhood. Now she works more hours than anyone should. She is upstairs right now doing charts on her laptop. One generation of sacrifice (mine and hers) will make all the difference in the world to our children. She thought ahead about someone other than herself. And I don't even really see her as a hero. I see her as doing what she was always supposed to do. As did my parents and her parents. As did theirs. Again, a generation or two of taking it on the chin and everyone else down the line can be set. Seems worth it to me. Why do so many others have such a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept? To me, this is the only real solution to income inequality (on a massive scale). But, again, I'm still holding out hope there's another plan. Taxes simply won't do it. Not permanently anyway. That may prop up a few for a while. But it doesn't raise anyone out of poverty long term.
Click to expand...

Not only the debt load but typically a doctor will start making money at 30 plus years old. Some "professions" already have a big pension by then.

And most of the docs I know work long hours. It's not a part time job.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back