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Increasing string length, more tension, less buzz???

gimmeagig

gimmeagig

Feb 25, 2004
2,891
1,198
Coeur D'Alene,Idaho
#1
I'm still tweaking with my Atelier Z 5string bass 34" scale.
When I got it I replaced the original bridge with a ken Smith ( like a Badass only quick release) bridge. I installed it as far forward as I could, thinking it might reduce the string tension and the bass would play like butter. Not really...
I have never been able to get the bass to play like a dream.I got the action set about medium and it plays pretty well. Doesn't feel as good as my 74 Fender Jazz and it is more touchy. I do get some annoying buzzes when I dig in a little more.I have to play with a lighter touch than on my 74 Jazz even though the Jazz has lower action.
Recently I read that a longer string length will make the low B tighter and better sounding and now I'm wondering what kind of an effect it would have on the whole instrument if I moved the bridge back.
I got about about an inch to play with, maybe a little more than that.
Is that something that could change the way the bass feels in a meaningful way? If the strings have a little more tension would I get less buzz? Would that allow me to dig in a little more?
Would a modification like that be a waste of time or is it worth trying?
What do you guys think?
 
#2
If you're talking about a fretted bass, you can't just move the bridge around at will. The distance from the 12th fret to the 1st string saddle needs to be the same as the distance from the fingerboard side of the nut to the 12th fret, give or take a little extra for adjustment of intonation.

If you want higher tension, try a heavier gauge set of strings.
 
#3
None of your questions will be answered by what you have done, nor what you propose. Continue no further with your "experiments" on that bass and get it to a proper luthier to undo what you have done and set it up properly and level the frets.

Having moved the bridge forward, can you even intonate the bass? Anyway seems you need to do some basic research on stringed instruments based on your actions and logic.

All that you want from the bass comes from proper set up, except string tension which only the choice of strings will deliver. DR Sunbeams have a nice tension, the round cores seem to add flex. If you want flats, LaBella med gauge are nice and flexible. TI flats are supposed to be even more floppy, I have never used them.
 
#4
No, I have not done "damage" to my bass and I don't do mindless experiments.I know about intonation and relief and shimming and heavy strings vs light etc...
So let me attempt to clarify what I did and what I'm curious about.
As far as I know the string length is the distance between the tuners and the ball that is hooked into the bridge.Not the nut and the saddle.The saddle sets the intonation but not the string length. On my bridge I have about 1 1/2 " of space in which I can move the saddles to intonate the bass.
In other words with the saddles staying where they are supposed to be I could mount the bridge forward or backward. Essentially increasing or decreasing the string length by 1 1/2".
I read that 35" scale basses have a much tighter B string than a 34 due to the increased string length. I only have a 34" scale but by moving the bridge back as far as possible (still keeping the saddles where they are supposed to be for intonation) I would actually then increase the string tension by increasing the distance from the tuner to the ball end.Does that make sense now? I think Gary Willis even has some kind of tube extention on his bass that moves the ball of the string back another inch.So I'm definitely not the first guy thinking about this.
Anyway, my Atelier Z bass happens to be the Tomohito Aioki model ( a bass hero in Japan) and one of several specifications for him on this particular model was the location of the bridge.He wanted it far forward.I just mounted it even further forward just by an extra 1/2" maybe.
My question was how different the bass might feel if I would have gone the other way and moved the bridge as far back as possible. Does a little bit of variation in string length make a noticeable difference in how a bass feels and how forgiving it is to a somewhat harder attack.
I know I might be tweaking too much and the result might not be worth the trouble but before I go through the effort of remounting my bridge.... has anyone here experimented with that?
 
#6
I believe you are confusing scale length and string length. Scale length refers to the distance between the contact points (the nut and the bridge saddles). String length is simply the total length of the string being used.

The things you are describing do not affect the scale length of your bass as long as the distance between the nut and saddles is constant...and you don't want to alter the scale of a fretted instrument because the spacing of the frets is determined by the scale length. So taking a 34" scale bass and moving the saddles back by one inch will give you a bass with terrible intonation.

Adding string length is a different subject. There are several builders, Ken Smith and Vinnie Fodera included, that have extended the length of the B-string by putting the B-string tuner farther away from the nut. Other manufacturers address the bridge by stringing through the body (which not only adds string length but gives a much sharper break angle behind the saddle compared to top-loading) while others use a two-piece bridge & tail piece system.

However most of the "tension" issues people have can be resolved with different strings as opposed to all the tomfoolery about adding string length.
 
#7
Buzzing can only be fixed with neck setup and fret work. An higher tension string may reduce buzz a little, only because it's vibration pattern is smaller, but it won't disappear.

First you said you moved it forward to shorten and get less tension, now you want more? Which is it? And this is all about playing comfort? Put the bridge where it belongs, set it up and address the frets if need be and find strings that deliver the tension you are looking for. More string core mass delivers more tension.
 
#9
Just to make sure our definitions are clear:

* Scale length = distance from nut to saddle (= 2x distance from nut to 12th fret).

* Total string length = distance measured along the string from contact point on tuning post to anchor point of ball end at the bridge.

* String tension = force with which the string pulls against the tuning post and against the anchor point at the ball end.

* String compliance = force required to move the string a given distance from side to side at a specified distance from the nut.
​
For a given open string pitch, string tension is determined by only two factors: scale length and mass per unit length of the string (i.e., string gauge). Changing the total string length will NOT change the string tension. Changing the string break angle at the nut or saddle also will NOT increase string tension.

For a given scale length, the string compliance is determined by the total string length, the material and diameter of the string core wire, the break angles at the nut and saddle and the coefficient of friction at the nut and saddle. If you want the string to feel stiffer, you want to shorten the total string length, not lengthen it. Basses with long distances between the nut and the tuning post and between the saddle and the ball end will feel softer and more "rubber-bandy" than ones with short overhangs like a headless bass.

Summary: if you move the bridge towards the end pin without changing the saddle location, you will not change the string tension or achieve less buzzing. Due to the longer total string length and decreased break angle at the saddles, the strings will feel slightly softer to the touch, but the difference may be so small that you are unable to detect it.
 
#11
Rick Auricchio said:
The $64 question: What was the original problem you were trying to solve?

With that answer, then it is possible to provide the correct solution you should have sought. Right now, you're wandering around trying to make your modifications right.
Click to expand...

The reason why I'm thinking about this is the fact that even though the bass is really well build ( including the fretwork) I just can't get the action as low as on my 74 Jazz or my Modulus Jazz bass.
On both those instruments I can dig in quite a bit before I get string buzz. The Atelier Z on the other hand is really touchy and I have to play super clean with a lighter touch to keep it from buzzing or clanking.Live it's not that significant but when I record and solo my track back it's an issue.
So I was wondering if a minor thing like the position of the bridge could have something to do with that.I'm pretty good at setting up instruments shimming, setting relief checking fretwork, intonating....all that is not new to me.But this bass has me stumped a little bit.
 
#12
There is no reason that a given bass with perfect frets, perfect nut, unwarped neck and proper relief for a given string height cannot be made to have as low action with no buzzing as with a different bass. The position of the string anchor point plays no part whatsoever in action. After all, that is what your goal is as stated in the op. Attend to the real causes and forget about moving the bridge around. Re-drilling a third set of holes is damage, so don't say you have not damaged your bass when you have already re-positioned the bridge once. It has been altered from its original state for an ill thought out purpose and that is in truth damage. Why would you consider persisting with more folly?

All due respect and good will to you. I hope you find success in your quest.
 
#13
96tbird said:
There is no reason that a given bass with perfect frets, perfect nut, unwarped neck and proper relief for a given string height cannot be made to have as low action with no buzzing as with a different bass. The position of the string anchor point plays no part whatsoever in action. After all, that is what your goal is as stated in the op. Attend to the real causes and forget about moving the bridge around. Re-drilling a third set of holes is damage, so don't say you have not damaged your bass when you have already re-positioned the bridge once. It has been altered from its original state for an ill thought out purpose and that is in truth damage. Why would you consider persisting with more folly?

All due respect and good will to you. I hope you find success in your quest.
Click to expand...

^^^
What he said.

I would actually then increase the string tension by increasing the distance from the tuner to the ball end.Does that make sense now?
Click to expand...

None whatsoever.

"Ready! Fire! Aim!"
 
#14
tstone said:
Just to make sure our definitions are clear:

* Scale length = distance from nut to saddle (= 2x distance from nut to 12th fret).

* Total string length = distance measured along the string from contact point on tuning post to anchor point of ball end at the bridge.

* String tension = force with which the string pulls against the tuning post and against the anchor point at the ball end.

* String compliance = force required to move the string a given distance from side to side at a specified distance from the nut.
​
For a given open string pitch, string tension is determined by only two factors: scale length and mass per unit length of the string (i.e., string gauge). Changing the total string length will NOT change the string tension. Changing the string break angle at the nut or saddle also will NOT increase string tension.

For a given scale length, the string compliance is determined by the total string length, the material and diameter of the string core wire, the break angles at the nut and saddle and the coefficient of friction at the nut and saddle. If you want the string to feel stiffer, you want to shorten the total string length, not lengthen it. Basses with long distances between the nut and the tuning post and between the saddle and the ball end will feel softer and more "rubber-bandy" than ones with short overhangs like a headless bass.

Summary: if you move the bridge towards the end pin without changing the saddle location, you will not change the string tension or achieve less buzzing. Due to the longer total string length and decreased break angle at the saddles, the strings will feel slightly softer to the touch, but the difference may be so small that you are unable to detect it.
Click to expand...

Hey TStone,
Thank you very much for that detailed explanation.That was very helpful. I'm tempted to move the bridge back based on what you explained,I've altered this bass quite a bit already.
relocated the bridge pickup to the 70's position routed out and reshaped the body to make it possible to reach the high E in the G string, changed the electronics to Sadowsky Pre and Nordstrand pickups. So Originality or even resale value is not a concern for me.Myaim is to get a 5 string bass that is as close to a mid 70s Marcus Miller type of Jazz as possible. The Atlelier Z seemed to be the best choice for that.

Here are a few pics so you guys can see that I didn't butcher the bass.
Check out the bridge. Is is very nice.Like a Badass with quickrelease.I just have to decide on leaving it where it is or moving it back. As you can see I have a little room to play with.About 1 inch.May not be enough to warrant the effort but then again I'll never know unless I try.I'm a pretty decent player and I'm very in tune with the instrument so I might actually notice the difference. At least that's what I'll be telling myself;)
ZRoutingside.jpg


ZRoutingBack.jpg


ZBridge.jpg


Zfull.jpg
 
#15
So I made the change, moved the bridge back about 1 1/4".
I didn't expect there to be a noticeable difference, but I wanted to try it anyway. I don't know if it's just wishful thinking but indeed the strings feel a little more rubbery to me.I can tell with my left hand that the strings feel a little more supple but I really notice it when I slap.I don't have to use the same kind of force.I get by with a little less and it seems that the tone I generate while slapping ( particulaly on the B string) is rounder, less harsh.
So TStone, thanks again, I know you didn't tell me to go ahead and do it, but what you explained to me helped me make that decision.
For me, after all the modifications I have made, the Atelier Z is the closest I have ever gotten to the Marcus Miller vibe in a 5 string bass. I know that in the process of getting there I have destroyed the resale value of the instrument but it's very unique now and much better than it was when it first arrived at my house. I'm very happy with it and I'm definitely going to keep it. :bassist:
 

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