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Interested in your opinion

Skel

Skel

Jun 19, 2005
3,237
45
Boulder, Colorado
#1
I was talking to the sound guy at a club we play where the PA and sound guy are provided to us. I wanted his advice on whether I should buy some 3 way JBL's from a friend of mine. I currently have 3 way Carvin's. The JBL and Carvins both have 15" woofers, 8" (or 6?) mids, and horns. This guy told me the difference would be miniscule if anything. So, I'm not going to buy the JBL's. We got to talking and I wanted to pick his brain about how my band could get the best sound possible at clubs where we use my PA. I wrote down all the suggestions he told me, and I'd like to get your opinions on these:

1. Get your guitar cabs up, not facing the backs of your knees, stands are great. If not a stand, then a chair, w/e, and hopefully tilted up. This way you can play at lower stage volume. Play at medium to medium-low volume. Point the guitar and bass amps in towards the drummer, then start to point them back out accordingly based on the drummer's input/ability to hear himself, etc. if necessary.

2. Feedback is almost always in the monitors - almost never in the mains. Since my PA has separate graphic EQ's for mains and monitors, he said to intentionally boost each frequency in the monitors until I get feedback. Then for those frequencies that feedback, roll off or attenuate those, so you're able to turn up if you need to, already having compensated for feedback.

3. Cut frequencies, don't boost - whenever possible.

4. Run the channel preamps as hot as possible and use the masters as a "floodgate" for volume.

5. If you're gonna mic things, bleed the guitar cab out the mains, mic only the kick drum, and according to him, you really don't need to mic the bass. If people can't hear the bass, have the bass player turn up, unless he's already close to maxing out, then bleed him through the mains. Making sure the vocals are well above, also making sure vocals are well above guitars.

6. If you don't have separate controls for each individual monitor (I have 2 12" wedges) then only run vocals through the monitors. Adding reverb would help cause feedback, so run them dry.

7. Roll a little low end off the vocals and guitars at the channel(s).

He also added that my 1,000 watt Carvin 12 channel powered mixer (333 watts per side, plus 333 watts shared by the 2 monitors) was perfect for practically any indoor venue we would play.

Anyone disagree with any of this?
 
#6
I always run as much of the band thru the PA as possible. Sounds better blended that way, I think. On drums, I also usually use a condenser overhead mic along with a kick drum mic, just so it sounds a little more balanced coming out of the speakers.
YMMV of course!
 
#7
Okay, one more question; now that I finally "get it" (I hope) about the primary source of feedback, I was thinking about how independent the mains graphic EQ is, possibly enabling me to use a good sounding, proven "canned" shape, of which I know there are several. The smiley face comes to mind.

Any advice or recommendations on this part?
 
#9
Skel said:
Okay, one more question; now that I finally "get it" (I hope) about the primary source of feedback, I was thinking about how independent the mains graphic EQ is, possibly enabling me to use a good sounding, proven "canned" shape, of which I know there are several. The smiley face comes to mind.

Any advice or recommendations on this part?
Click to expand...

Canned shapes are worth nothing. The EQ is there to make up for a deficient room and feedback, not a deficient mix. Get all your shaping done at the channel strips if at all possible. If you can leave the mains graphic flat and sound good, you're doing a good job.
 
#11
1. Get your guitar cabs up, not facing the backs of your knees, stands are great. If not a stand, then a chair, w/e, and hopefully tilted up. This way you can play at lower stage volume. Play at medium to medium-low volume. Point the guitar and bass amps in towards the drummer, then start to point them back out accordingly based on the drummer's input/ability to hear himself, etc. if necessary.

Yup, absolutely if guitarists are using combos. The "point the cabs" trick works well in smaller venues.

2. Feedback is almost always in the monitors - almost never in the mains. Since my PA has separate graphic EQ's for mains and monitors, he said to intentionally boost each frequency in the monitors until I get feedback. Then for those frequencies that feedback, roll off or attenuate those, so you're able to turn up if you need to, already having compensated for feedback.

Again, correct. Monitors are the normal culprit. Do yourself a favor, and when you boost, boost SLOWLY. Feedback can hurt.

3. Cut frequencies, don't boost - whenever possible.

Amen. This is gospel.

4. Run the channel preamps as hot as possible and use the masters as a "floodgate" for volume.

Within reason, and this is a highly contested thing in audio. I shoot for 0dB on my input meters. Red lights are still bad. This isn't recording, we aren't looking to saturate a tape.

5. If you're gonna mic things, bleed the guitar cab out the mains, mic only the kick drum, and according to him, you really don't need to mic the bass. If people can't hear the bass, have the bass player turn up, unless he's already close to maxing out, then bleed him through the mains. Making sure the vocals are well above, also making sure vocals are well above guitars.

Like others said, depends on situation. I use at least a kick mic and overheads, and prefer a kick, snare, and overheads. He is basically making one important point, though, and that is most people will consider a mix "good" if the kick is solid and the vocals can be understood without being piercing (at least for rock music).

6. If you don't have separate controls for each individual monitor (I have 2 12" wedges) then only run vocals through the monitors. Adding reverb would help cause feedback, so run them dry.

Reverb in monitors is trouble unless you have a good sound engineer, and even then...

7. Roll a little low end off the vocals and guitars at the channel(s).

Low cuts are your friends. There is nothing useful in the vocals below 100Hz.

And don't ever worry about EQ "shapes". I've never met a competent engineer at any level who works that way...and smiley face is bad. Use the EQ for what it is designed to do.

-Mark
 
#12
mrokern said:
1. Get your guitar cabs up, not facing the backs of your knees, stands are great. If not a stand, then a chair, w/e, and hopefully tilted up. This way you can play at lower stage volume. Play at medium to medium-low volume. Point the guitar and bass amps in towards the drummer, then start to point them back out accordingly based on the drummer's input/ability to hear himself, etc. if necessary.

Yup, absolutely if guitarists are using combos. The "point the cabs" trick works well in smaller venues.

2. Feedback is almost always in the monitors - almost never in the mains. Since my PA has separate graphic EQ's for mains and monitors, he said to intentionally boost each frequency in the monitors until I get feedback. Then for those frequencies that feedback, roll off or attenuate those, so you're able to turn up if you need to, already having compensated for feedback.

Again, correct. Monitors are the normal culprit. Do yourself a favor, and when you boost, boost SLOWLY. Feedback can hurt.

3. Cut frequencies, don't boost - whenever possible.

Amen. This is gospel.

4. Run the channel preamps as hot as possible and use the masters as a "floodgate" for volume.

Within reason, and this is a highly contested thing in audio. I shoot for 0dB on my input meters. Red lights are still bad. This isn't recording, we aren't looking to saturate a tape.

5. If you're gonna mic things, bleed the guitar cab out the mains, mic only the kick drum, and according to him, you really don't need to mic the bass. If people can't hear the bass, have the bass player turn up, unless he's already close to maxing out, then bleed him through the mains. Making sure the vocals are well above, also making sure vocals are well above guitars.

Like others said, depends on situation. I use at least a kick mic and overheads, and prefer a kick, snare, and overheads. He is basically making one important point, though, and that is most people will consider a mix "good" if the kick is solid and the vocals can be understood without being piercing (at least for rock music).

6. If you don't have separate controls for each individual monitor (I have 2 12" wedges) then only run vocals through the monitors. Adding reverb would help cause feedback, so run them dry.

Reverb in monitors is trouble unless you have a good sound engineer, and even then...

7. Roll a little low end off the vocals and guitars at the channel(s).

Low cuts are your friends. There is nothing useful in the vocals below 100Hz.

And don't ever worry about EQ "shapes". I've never met a competent engineer at any level who works that way...and smiley face is bad. Use the EQ for what it is designed to do.

-Mark
Click to expand...

Okay - this is great stuff guys. Now I know. I'll just shoot for flat for the mains and go from there.
 
#14
"Low cuts are your friends. There is nothing useful in the vocals below 100Hz."

I hadn't really thought about this. Maybe I need to engage my 75 hz high-pass filters on the vocal channels.

I agree with everything else. Use discretion when setting the vocal trims; adequate saturation is a must.

riis
 
#16
I take it one step further and actually prefer aux-fed subs when running big rigs. I can then tweak exactly how much of each channel even gets to the sub at all (even with a low cut, there's still some signal getting through).

In a boomy environment (arena, big club, etc.) it REALLY cleans things up!

The only catch for smaller rigs is that:

1) It takes more processing

2) It is more complex to set up and run

Not good for most weekenders. Engaging low cuts will make a huge difference in any rig, though!

-Mark
 
#17
Thats some very very good advice generally for smaller venues.

One point I would make is that in my situation I always mic the guitar amp. It doesnt go through FOH, just monitors since his cab is just lost for me on stage and I absolutely have to hear him to lock up.

I run one pair of monitors for main vocal and a seperate pair (one for me and one for the guitarist) which is bv/vox/guitar.

Its just something about his amp, it works out front at a level at which it is not loud enough for me on the other side of the stage.

Had excellent feedback about our sound at the last gig.

Use the high pass filters on vox and guitars, even keys if the keyboard player has a very heavy left hand, drum overheads and snare. Then decide which is the real bottom end in your band kick or bass, and switch the low cut on in the other one. Will totally clean up the bottom end and make your FOH sound better very often.

Graphic EQ is for room fixing and (if you have 31 bands per octave) serious feedback control. The set up procedure described is tried and tested. It really works. Also a good idea to run some tracks off a CD through the PA to check you haven't ballsed up the overall sound just getting over feedback. Channel E is for tone shaping. Cut first, boost as a last result.

Top tip, if you put a hand over the end of a mic it will often cause feedback at a lower level. Dont know why, but this is true. Always check the level like this, its similar to a singers face and if you get know feedback at all like this you are pretty much set for the gig.

Last point, don't play too loud for the room! Its easily done, and really only proves that you don't care if anyone can hear you in an intelligible way or not. In most cases this will not help your chances of another gig at the venue.
 
#18
"Use the high pass filters on vox and guitars, even keys if the keyboard player has a very heavy left hand, drum overheads and snare. Then decide which is the real bottom end in your band kick or bass, and switch the low cut on in the other one. Will totally clean up the bottom end and make your FOH sound better very often."

Interesting. My board's high pass is preset at 75 hz, the crossover's high pass is 40 hz, and per this thread's recommendation, the crossover point is ~70 hz. How do I reconcile this to keep a low end presence without the "boom"? I'm not sure whether the bass or kick is providing the cleaner low-end kick. It almost appears as if the subs won't be getting any signal at all.

Riis
 

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