Interesting article on Premier Guitar - Carol Kaye

[king_biscuit]

I do have a lot of better things to do, but I also devoted the better part of a year of my life to helping The Funk Brothers garner their well deserved Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award (these things just don't happen), and more time representing them on the Hollywood Walk Of Fame Star they were also recognized for and the ceremony is currently pending, so obviously I have a significant self interest in the truth about their legacy being secure, and disputing false claims such as those Ms Kaye has levied along with some other people who have no clue for whatever reason desperately wanting to believe her. I don't care about these Carol Kaye fanboy trolls...just those who may read her or their ill informed totally false claims and not know the actual truth about a "true" bass legend...James Jamerson who deserves ALL the credit for his brilliant timeless work.

You don't know any more than any body else. I'm not really a CK fan, and I have worshiped Jamerson since I started playing bass in the 80s, after discovering him through T-Bone Wolk's Bass in the 80s column in the old Guitar for the Practicing Musician magazine. I purchased the original Standing in the Shadows book and cassettes when they were first released in the early 90s, and purchased them again to get the CDs several years ago. I purchased the double disc DVD documentary as soon as it was released and have seen it probably 20 times -- my favorite performance in Gerald Levert's Shotgun!

The information from that site you linked to has been available for years, and many of us have already seen it. If you do a search here on TB, there are other CK/Jamerson threads in which I and others call Carol out and acuse her of being crazy. So this is not some CK lovefest, ok.

However, Made to Love Her does not sound like Jamerson to me (I have not heard the isolated track, though), because I don't think even Jamerson could have played that line fluidly using only one finger (the hook) on his right hand. Do you even play bass, or any instrument?

 

[SoCal1]

You don't know any more than any body else. I'm not really a CK fan, and I have worshiped Jamerson since I started playing bass in the 80s, after discovering him through T-Bone Wolk's Bass in the 80s column in the old Guitar for the Practicing Musician magazine. I purchased the original Standing in the Shadows book and cassettes when they were first released in the early 90s, and purchased them again to get the CDs several years ago. I purchased the double disc DVD documentary as soon as it was released and have seen it probably 20 times -- my favorite performance in Gerald Levert's Shotgun!

The information from that site you linked to has been available for years, and many of us have already seen it. If you do a search here on TB, there are other CK/Jamerson threads in which I and others call Carol out and acuse her of being crazy. So this is not some CK lovefest, ok.

However, Made to Love Her does not sound like Jamerson to me (I have not heard the isolated track, though), because I don't think even Jamerson could have played that line fluidly using only one finger (the hook) on his right hand. Do you even play bass, or any instrument?

Sorry but I DO know more than most others. I grew up in Northwest Detroit (a few houses down from Smokey Robinson) and as a kid met most of the Motown artists, songwriters, producers and musicians. My brother as a teenager worked at Motown writing lead sheets and even played on some sessions including For Once In My Life (flute, but he was a multi instrumentalist who played many instruments including being Paul Ankas guitarist before becoming his musical director in the 70's). My brother and I toured the Motown museum last week, and Allen Rawls, the CEO found it significant enough to videotape our entire private tour. I played bass in and around Detroit in the 60's and 70's, mostly R7B and Jazz, and played in some of the smaller studios. I was a production partner of former Motown songwriter and producer Ivy Jo Hunter (Dancing In The Street, etc) in the 70's. My brother was a major Motown arranger in Los Angeles as well as being music director for Smokeys NBC series Motown areview and principal arranger for the Motown At The Apollo special, as well as doing all the music for President Clintons films and documentaries. He's also an award winning television and film composer. I could go on, but I'll hold anything else for the book I've been asked by publishers to write (if I ever do).

 

[king_biscuit]

Sorry but I DO know more than most others. I grew up in Northwest Detroit (a few houses down from Smokey Robinson) and as a kid met most of the Motown artists, songwriters, producers and musicians. My brother as a teenager worked at Motown writing lead sheets and even played on some sessions including For Once In My Life. My brother and I toured the Motown museum last week, and Allen Rawls, the CEO found it significant enough to videotape our entire private tour. I played bass in and around Detroit in the 60's and 70's, mostly R7B and Jazz, and played in some of the smaller studios. I was a production partner of former Motown songwriter and producer Ivy Jo Hunter (Dancing In The Street, etc) in the 70's. My brother was a major Motown arranger in Los Angeles as well as being music director for Smokeys NBC series Motown areview and principal arranger for the Motown At The Apollo special, as well as doing all the music for President Clintons films and documentaries. He's also an award winning television and film composer. I could go on, but I'll hold anything else for the book I've been asked by publishers to write (if I ever do).

All of that may or may not be true, you could just be another self-styled "expert," internet nut. However, whether it is or not, you don't know any more than what you have been told by others. Did you actually see Jamerson play on the studio recording of Made to Love Her? Didn't think so. There were other bass players who recorded for Motown.

 

[SoCal1]

PS...IWMTLH would have been a piece of cake for Jamerson. Home Cookin (for one) was paced much faster, unless Carol was one of Jr Walkers All Stars too!

 

[SoCal1]

All of that may or may not be true, you could just be another self-styled "expert," internet nut. However, whether it is or not, you don't know any more than what you have been told by others. Did you actually see Jamerson play on the studio recording of Made to Love Her? Didn't think so. There were other bass players who recorded for Motown.

OK...but Hank Cosby WAS...he produced the ****. As for who I am...I really don't care what you say cause you probably don't have a clue either. After my music career I was a major market radio newscaster and have not performed as a bassist in years. My brother, who will back each and every statement I've made here is probably likely ALSO an internut "nut". Music is probably the only thing we 100% agree on lol. Check out his website...

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Prety cool stuff that HE made up too...HUH?

 

[king_biscuit]

PS...IWMTLH would have been a piece of cake for Jamerson. Home Cookin (for one) was paced much faster, unless Carol was one of Jr Walkers All Stars too!

Home Cookin is a much easier line than Made to Love Her.

All you know is what you have read from others (or maybe been told by others), you don't have any direct knowledge of any of this. You have drawn conclusions from the same evidence available to everyone with an internet account. Your opinion is no more valid than any other bitter internet troll. Sorry, but get over yourself.

 

[king_biscuit]

My brother, who will back each and every statement I've made here is probably likely ALSO an internut "nut". Music is probably the only thing we 100% agree on lol. Check out his website...

Bwaaahaaaa , that proves it then. Btw, my brother will back me up too...

You are not a direct witness and have no independent direct knowledge of anything. Stop overselling it, please!

 

[SoCal1]

Bwaaahaaaa , that proves it then. Btw, my brother will back me up too...

You are not a direct witness and have no independent direct knowledge of anything. Stop overselling it, please!

Unbelievable...How's THIS (which I posted the other day).

Joe Messina is the guy who actually doubled Jamerson on guitar on IWMTLH and many other tracks. We spent 4 hours with this legend last week talking about Music Motown, and yes...Jamerson.

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I wasn't there for the Kennedy assassination either, but I'm pretty sure he's dead.

Some people just refuse to be educated so consider yourself EXPELLED.

Class dismissed!

 

[king_biscuit]

Unbelievable...How's THIS (which I posted the other day).

Joe Messina is the guy who actually doubled Jamerson on guitar on IWMTLH and many other tracks. We spent 4 hours with this legend last week talking about Music Motown, and yes...Jamerson.

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I wasn't there for the Kennedy assassination either, but I'm pretty sure he's dead.

Yes and I was not in the studio for the recording of Made to Love Her and that happened too. Your flawed logic helps explain some of your bitter ramblings in this thread. Your evidence is no evidence at all, and you certainly could never testify in a courtroom, for example, to something Joe Messina told you about something he says he saw -- sorry! Any of us can go straight to the source and read what others (important people who were actually there, not some self-styled anonymous internet troll whos brother will back him up) have said.

btw, I know how easy it is to convince older people to take a position on something that happened a long time ago. It's really a matter of how you ask the questions, and after that they are locked in. Sorry, I love Joe's playing, but I don't trust his memory...

Oh, now class is dismissed!


Edit: Joe Messina has said for years that CK didn't play on those tunes, so that is not something he just came out last week and entrusted to you!

 

[SoCal1]

Yes and I was not in the studio for the recording of Made to Love Her and that happened too. Your flawed logic helps explain some of your bitter ramblings in this thread. Your evidence is no evidence at all, and you certainly could never testify in a courtroom, for example, to something Joe Messina told you about something he says he saw -- sorry! Any of us can go straight to the source and read what others (important people who were actually there, not some self-styled anonymous internet troll whos brother will back him up) have said.

btw, I know how easy it is to convince older people to take a position on something that happened a long time ago. It's really a matter of how you ask the questions, and after that they are locked in. Sorry, I love Joe's playing, but I don't trust his memory...

Oh, now class is dismissed!


Edit: Joe Messina has said for years that CK didn't play on those tunes, so that is not something he just came out last week and entrusted to you!

I'm kinda done with your stuck on stupid mentality. Both producers of the songs in question signed affidavits that Jamerson played on those songs. In addition, The Holland brothers say they had never even HEARD of Carol Kaye when these claims came forward.

Game, Set, Match...

PS...I don't recall mentioning ANYTHING specific we discussed with Joe in the course of our 4+ hour get together...but I can assure you that there is absolutely nothing wrong or faulty with Joes memory. My brother and Dennis Coffey were Joes only two guitar students back in the day, and he still remembers the most minute details of lessons, gigs they played together, and sessions to the point that recalling some of those details is simply amazing. That's what clean living can do for you...

 

[king_biscuit]

I'm kinda done with your stuck on stupid mentality. Both producers of the songs in question signed affidavits that Jamerson played on those songs. In addition, The Holland brothers say they had never even HEARD of Carol Kaye when these claims came forward.

Game, Set, Match...

My issue is not with any of that, and CK probably didn't play on any of that stuff (whether Jamerson played on Made to Love Her is a different question). However, you don't know anymore than anyone else, and you have based your all of your rantings on public information, while trying to sound like an insider. I have a lot of respect for the guys who played that stuff, but you are no better than CK trying to improve your position by pretending to be something you are not.

 

[SoCal1]

My issue is not with any of that, and CK probably didn't play on any of that stuff (whether Jamerson played on Made to Love Her is a different question). However, you don't know anymore than anyone else, and you have based your all of your rantings on public information, while trying to sound like an insider. I have a lot of respect for the guys who played that stuff, but you are no better than CK trying to improve your position by pretending to be something you are not.

No...I' quoting an affadavit that my friend Bob Lee has in his possession after Ms Kaye threatened to sue him. She stuck her tail between her legs and retreated when the producer swore that Jamerson played on both those songs and others that CK tried to take credit for. I wasnkt in the studio...I just did the research and spoke with many of the people who WERE there.

I woke up this morning and the ground and streets were wet. I figured it must have rained, although I didn't see it...so don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining now. You're sounding more and more rediculous. I'm not the least bit embarrassed to clearly state that I DO know about all this stuff, and can get many of the people involved who personally know me to back up my assertions. Carol Kaye can get NONE.

 

[king_biscuit]

No...I' quoting an affadavit that my friend Bob Lee has in his possession after Ms Kaye threatened to sue him. She stuck her tail between her legs and retreated when the producer swore that Jamerson played on both those songs and others that CK tried to take credit for. I wasnkt in the studio...I just did the research and spoke with many of the people who WERE there.

I woke up this morning and the ground and streets were wet. I figured it must have rained, although I didn't see it...so don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining now. You're sounding more and more rediculous. I'm not the least bit embarrassed to clearly state that I DO know about all this stuff, and can get many of the people involved who personally know me to back up my assertions. Carol Kaye can get NONE.

Whatever Carol did or didn't do, you have no independent knowledge of any of this (all of your evidence is based on what others have said), so quit trying to act like such a big shot. All of us can read the accounts and affidavits, and all of us can listen to the tracks. I'm not necessarily disputing the evidence, I'm calling you out as a fraud. Now please don't get your brother to beat me up, ok?

 

[JAUQO III-X]

No...I' quoting an affadavit that my friend Bob Lee has in his possession after Ms Kaye threatened to sue him.

Bob is a friend of mine and I have the highest level of respect for Bob. And I equally respect all that he has, is and will be doing for years to come in keeping Jamersons legacy what it is and will be in years to come.

Bob has done probably more than any one else when it comes to all things Jamerson.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I don't know CK but have ordered some of her books and benefited from her skills as a teacher. She said one of her bedrock techniques back in the day for Motown was using conga lines and applying them to the music as a bassline. I always thought that was a cool idea and really like what she came up with. As for "stealing," every musician steals ideas they hear and adapts them to their own style. Learning from the masters is a time honored technique. I can understand her desire to receive attribution when it's due. But in the end most people don't care about that level of detail in the music. The either like the music and buy it (or steal it), or they ignore it and move on. And musicians debate the finer points on the Internet. C'est la vie.

 

[SoCal1]

Bob is a friend of mine and I have the highest level of respect for Bob. And I equally respect all that he has, is and will be doing for years to come in keeping Jamersons legacy what it is and will be in years to come.

Bob has done probably more than any one else when it comes to all things Jamerson.

Totally agree...Bob is also a friend and a knowledgable Jamerson devotee who took a whole lot of unnecessary crap to get the truth out.

 

[SoCal1]

And King Biscuit...you're looking like your distemper shot is seriously overdue...LMAOAROTF

 

[king_biscuit]

Compared to you I AM a big shot. Proctology is likely the only topic you know more than I. As for beating you up...I'm sure I could handle that myself LOL.

You can't back up anything you have said. You have no personal knowledge of any of this stuff, and your opinions and conclusions are no more valid than anyone who has read the internet material.

I'll bet Bob, Joe, or any of the other actual Motown musicians and players would be embarrassed by your antics in these threads, btw.

 

[SoCal1]

You can't back up anything you have said. You have no personal knowledge of any of this stuff, and your opinions and conclusions are no more valid than anyone who has read the internet material.

I'll bet Bob, Joe, or any of the other actual Motown musicians and players would be embarrassed by your antics in these threads, btw.

I have no doubt that Babbitt RIP who has been one of the most vocal critics against CK's false claims, would want to put a lower part of his anatomy into a mid section part of yours. Bob was a dear friend and BTW used to be a professional wrestler.

True, Joe Messina stays away from any sort of controversey...but Jack Ashford, who is still with us would want to travel from Memphis to wherever you are to set you straight about all this Jamerson stuff, as would Eddie Willis. Jack don't take no stuff and he and Eddie (both friends) WERE there...

 

[king_biscuit]

I have no doubt that Babbitt RIP who has been one of the most vocal critics against CK's false claims, would want to put a lower part of his anatomy into a mid section part of yours. Bob was a dear friend and BTW used to be a professional wrestler.

True, Joe Messina stays away from any sort of controversey...but Jack Ashford, who is still with us would want to travel from Memphis to wherever you are to set you straight about all this Jamerson stuff, as would Eddie Willis. Jack don't take no stuff and he and Eddie (both friends) WERE there...

Really, bob Babbitt would beat me up for calling you out as a fraud and a troll? I love Bob, and have no problem with anything or anyone but you. None of your rantings, name calling, or hate gives you any extra stature or status as an expert here. You don't know anything that you haven't been told or read from someone else. Stop pretending to have been there, you weren't!