Intonation on the modern electric bass

[JenderBazzFass]

I've had numerous guitars and basses over the years, and have tried to be fanatical about intonation. But recently when working on a stubborn bass that would get 95% there but not closer, I think I had a realization.

A fretted electric bass with 12 standard frets is already making a compromise on intonation, because it is subdividing the scale at 12 tones at equal temperament.

The strings are different throughout their length, with small variations in flexibility throughout and they must react differently to the tension of fretting at different points throughout their length, bending and stretching in different ways. Each string is an individual.

Further, the essence of the fundamental being generated is dependent on other factors that affect the string's behavior, like action height, rigidity of the instrument along the scale, the string gauge, the age of the string, interference from the pickups, on and on.

And this is even before you start doubting your measuring instruments. (Is this tuner tracking the B string accurately? Can it track correctly if I'm setting up this bass in Drop A? Is this one particular tuner out of spec?)

Even a Dingwall or whatever - an ideal bass, a fanned-fret multiscale bass with straight frets can't intonate perfectly because even temperament is always an approximation.

So knowing that perfect intonation isn't possible, how do you approach it? At what level of precision are you satisfied? At what level of precision do you think you have effective precision, as precise as normal human ears can be?

 

[bholder]

Perfect intonation is (nearly) possible, but in only 1 key at a time. "Just" intonation is the pure version that works in only one key at a time, "Equal" intonation is approximation compromise to be able to play in all keys equally in tune (more or less). Learn to live with the approximation. Or prepare for madness.

 

[bholder]

As for "what level of precision", the goal is "as exactly precise as possible", but it's to a different target. Exact Equal intonation is "just a little bit off" of the pure harmonic intervals (Just temperament), but equally in all keys. Get used to it.

 

[ardgedee]

I remember an interview with Don Was where he said that when he was producing Brian Wilson's (Beach Boys) second solo album, Wilson insisted that musicians tune by ear to a piano rather than use an electronic tuner because the subtle dissonance from everybody being slightly off in different ways made the sound feel larger and richer.

Perfect, exact notes are a good goal to strive for while working on setup, but accepting the errors you can't fix is what helps music be interesting.

 

[ardgedee]

I should add... if you think intonating a bass guitar is frustrating, you haven't tried tuning a piano.

 

[Zooberwerx]

It's almost an exercise-in-futility. If limiting one's self to the 1st-12th frets, you can usually get by when employing the conventional "open string = 12th harmonic = 12th fretted" as everything should fall into place with a decent set-up and proper string install...just don't check the 24th fret! If truly an artist and navigating the entire fingerboard, intonate via the 7th and 17th and suffer the compromise and inherent offsets.

Riis

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I would argue multi-scale is less likely to be problematic with intonation since indeed each string is treated independently.
Also 24 frets help me enable getting much more accurate intonation across the whole length.

I'd suggest get it set as close as you can, if that's not good enough get it to someone that can.

I doubt the audience will notice a couple cents off here and there, get it close and just enjoy playing and stop worrying about the numbers.

I will say though I have run into certain instruments that fight the process, perhaps this bass is a problem?

Last chance, if you have the spare cash, just have it plek'd. That's supposed to be the end all and supposed to get as close to perfection as possible. That said I've never found the need to Plek since all my setups are working and intonating perfectly well for my needs.

 

[2saddleslab]

Yes, intonation is & always has been a compromise. Especially for primitive types like me where one saddle affects two strings. But I love the challenge and don't ever remember a scenario where it wasn't achievable [except maybe the heaviest string gauges]. If I can make it work w/ two saddles y'all should be able to as well.

 

[brianrost]

Yes, intonation is & always has been a compromise. Especially for primitive types like me where one saddle affects two strings.

I’m still trying to figure out how Ned Steinberger was able to use a single saddle bridge design on the NS Radius basses and get it to intonate at least as perfect as equal temperment allows.

 

[2saddleslab]

I’m still trying to figure out how Ned Steinberger was able to use a single saddle bridge design on the NS Radius basses and get it to intonate at least as perfect as equal temperment allows.

View attachment 7379059

Good question. Although it looks like the entire saddle is somewhat adjustable. But still that's quite a feat.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I’m still trying to figure out how Ned Steinberger was able to use a single saddle bridge design on the NS Radius basses and get it to intonate at least as perfect as equal temperment allows.

View attachment 7379059

IME, it doesn't but it's close enough for jazz. Finding a suitable compromise among all 5 strings was a challenge. I imagine a single shared piezo is a lot easier to implement than 5 separate units.

Riis

 

[JazznFunk]

Open strings are in-tune and stable, Bridge saddles are set where the 12th fret harmonic is in-tune and stable as possible, double checked with fretting the string AT the 12th, ON the fret wire with the lightest possible pressure to avoid bending it sharp. I also use a very small gauge allen wrench to press the string down at the 12th fret wire so that the end of my finger isn't influencing it in any way... I also do this on fretless basses. It gets me as close as possible without being more OCD about it than I already am.

 

[superiorpine]

There is a solution.....

Google Search

 

[BassicJazzy]

This thread makes me grateful that I do not have perfect pitch.

 

[Ostie]

Tempered tuning. Even a Steinway can’t be tuned perfectly. But they still sound amazing.

 

[bholder]

I remember an interview with Don Was where he said that when he was producing Brian Wilson's (Beach Boys) second solo album, Wilson insisted that musicians tune by ear to a piano rather than use an electronic tuner because the subtle dissonance from everybody being slightly off in different ways made the sound feel larger and richer.

Perfect, exact notes are a good goal to strive for while working on setup, but accepting the errors you can't fix is what helps music be interesting.

One of the things that make Barbershop harmonies so compelling is that they train themselves to adjust each pitch to the ideal frequency for the momentarily current harmonic landscape. So even if the song is in G, when they sing say, the C chord, they sing the "pure" (Just intonation) C chord as if the key was C. Makes the harmonies sound so pure, because they are, but devilishly difficult to learn and perform. They dynamically re-tune their intonation on each and every chord.

 

[Ellery]

Dude, you need a fretless.

 

[bholder]

you haven't tried tuning a piano

You would think it was as simple as tuning each string to exact pitch with a digital tuner. It ain't. Well, it kinda is, you can do that, if you want the piano to sound like cold poop...

 

[Kevin Hailey]

This is the one big advantage (and challenge) of fretless instruments.

 

[Abner]

So knowing that perfect intonation isn't possible, how do you approach it?

As others have already mentioned, I play fretless.