Intros where it's hard to find the "1"

[BassyBill]

Well ... I have to shime in for the tempo thing.


7/8 and 7/4 is not the same thing and won't ever be the same.

7/8 imply seven 8th in one bar while 7/4 imply seven 4th really not the same thing. Also the 7/8 will feel in three while the 7/4 feel binary even if you do a triplet.

Also a 7/8 will have those strong beat : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
While a 7/4 will have those strong beat : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

I'm afraid your understanding of this aspect of music is not strictly correct and I'm responding here to prevent people being misled by what you have posted. By the way - "tempo thing"? Not sure what you mean by this. Anyway...

I'd respectfully suggest that you think again about what the bottom number in a time signature actually tells you. The top number tells you how many beats there are in a measure. The bottom number tells you the chosen duration value that has been assigned to each beat, and no more than that, even though people will often try to infer from it information that isn't really there (as is the case with your comment).

A time signature of 7/4 or 7/8 doesn't really tell you anything about where the strong beats are at all, or the "feel" of the rhythm. Anything with seven beats in a bar could be written either way. There is no inherent difference in feel that's due to just the time signature.

(By the way, I think we also need to be more careful about how we use the term "triplet" when talking about musical time - it's most definitely NOT just a collection of any three equal duration notes or any three beats in a bar.)

 

[pocketgroove]

The intro to this one almost always gets me: The James Gang - Funk 49# - YouTube

 

[peledog]

Oh, and Cypress Grove by Clutch has a great example of an intro that'll take anyone a few listens to get their head around...

Great track. The percussion starts on the 3 of the bar.

 

[djaydjay]

Mudvayne - Everything and Nothing
A great song, but it always takes me a few seconds to be in synchronisation with the guitar/bass.
Probably because I don't exactly get what the drummer is doing ^^ (yes, I'm bad at figuring out unusual time signatures).

 

[peledog]

Great thread!

Demolition Man by the Police always throws me... it sounds straightforward from the beginning, but then around 1:18 Stewart adds the snare and you realize you had it all wrong...

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I usually get the transition wrong from verse to chorus on Spirits in a Material World

The Police - Spirits in the Material World - YouTube

so I HAVE to count while playing this song - 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 AND lol

 

[Saxn]

First time I heard this, I died a little inside. Danny Carey (Tool's drummer) is god at dropping time, and this one is tricky to figure out when to come in. I'll let the time signature stay unknown for now and you guys can figure it out!

Tool - Ticks and Leeches

I think the thing that initially threw me was that I wanted to count it at half speed. I find myself doing that a lot with uncommon time sigs for some reason. Then I double my counting tempo and it becomes apparent.

 

[mikkejohansson]

I'm afraid your understanding of this aspect of music is not strictly correct and I'm responding here to prevent people being misled by what you have posted. By the way - "tempo thing"? Not sure what you mean by this. Anyway...

I'd respectfully suggest that you think again about what the bottom number in a time signature actually tells you. The top number tells you how many beats there are in a measure. The bottom number tells you the chosen duration value that has been assigned to each beat, and no more than that, even though people will often try to infer from it information that isn't really there (as is the case with your comment).

A time signature of 7/4 or 7/8 doesn't really tell you anything about where the strong beats are at all, or the "feel" of the rhythm. Anything with seven beats in a bar could be written either way. There is no inherent difference in feel that's due to just the time signature.

(By the way, I think we also need to be more careful about how we use the term "triplet" when talking about musical time - it's most definitely NOT just a collection of any three equal duration notes or any three beats in a bar.)

Correct.

The bottom number MAINLY matters with regards to the notation of the music.

However, it can also IMPLY (not to a definite) that the tempo of a 7/8 measure is faster/higher than that of a 7/4 measure.

Again, this is not a rule but an implication that it MAY be so.

In (at least European) church and choir music that is the way they've been using, for example, 2/4 and 2/2 time signatures for a couple hundred years (well, since we started caring about time sigs anyway).

And as stated above; both 7/4 and 7/8 can be divided in to any form, be it 3+2+2, 2+3+3, 3+3+1 or any other kind.



Now, to get a bit less scientific - i think there CAN also be som truth to the time sig responding to the feel - but not as simple as some have tried to state it.

Bear with me.

A 7/4 beat would imply that the time signature is "extended" -ie that 4/4 is the "norm" but it is extended with three extra beats before it "starts over".

A 7/8 beat would imply that the time signature is "shortened", that 8/8 is the "norm" but you "drop" the last 8th.

I could see a difference in these feels, but not to the extent that I'd call it "true". Just another angle on it....as I said, purely un-scientific.



Oh yeah, I have a degree in Music Education, and we spent WAY too much time talking about these things between classes....

 

[Saxn]

Well, I've seen nobody mention this one, so I'll throw it in... first time I ever heard any Kansas tunes that weren't burned-out radio cuts was listening to the "Point of Know Return" album with a buddy. I heard The Spider and I remember going "wow... these guys can really PLAY!!"

 

[BassyBill]

Good post from Mikke. The difference, I think, is one of implication and inference.

People will INFER things from choice of time signature, and what they infer may be what the writer intended to IMPLY - or it may not. Further information about accents or meter (and, of course, tempo) is needed to remove ambiguities, as such information is not present in the time signature alone.

The attached file is something I scored out for another discussion of this and shows just how little a time signature can sometimes tell you, if you take a while to play through this example.

Anyway, saxn - loving that Kansas track. Very ELP and even a little Jethro Tull in places.

 

[India_Sierra]

It's not the one, but that whole intro bit to Rush's 'Spirit of the Radio' is a real pain in the rump.

It certainly is! I learned it by rote, going through it again and again until the timing and feel was second nature. I don't envy someone learning it for the first time, or learning it quickly for whatever reason!

 

[Saxn]

...
The attached file is something I scored out for another discussion of this and shows just how little a time signature can sometimes tell you, if you take a while to play through this example.

Anyway, saxn - loving that Kansas track. Very ELP and even a little Jethro Tull in places.

Holy Jeebus, Bill... shouldn't have wandered in here with a sight reading deficiency it would seem. I keep losing a half-beat somewhere while trying to work through this thing!

Glad you liked the track; it's unfortunate that Kansas had so much interesting music that never saw airplay, but if you give their albums a listen there are a lot - a LOT of hidden gems in there that show not only good musicianship but excellent lyric writing as well.

 

[tZer]

I dunno 'bout this one Teez. I've always counted this one as a very slow 4/4 with the bass drum kicking straight eights, even though there's a double time swing eight feel over the top of it. Even the musical interlude passages count out straight ahead.

The reggae beat has an ongoing argument going on about how one truly counts the "feel" for this groove. I'm of the camp that bass and drums play a slow 4/4 underneath with the main accent being the typical 2 & 4 backbeat; the other instruments emphsizing the offbeats - the "and" of each beat. The other instruments playing double time over the top makes the main accent sound like: 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, but IMO it's really: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
...

I too counted it ("Master Blaster") in a slow 4 when I learned it by ear and it made perfect sense to me imagining it in 4/4 with a triplet feel - and I believe that ultimately notating it in 12/8 is one way to imply a slow 4 with a triplet feel without having to fill the page with triplet notation and dotted notes.

As I think many of us are saying, songs can be correctly written in a variety of time signatures. Some time-sigs permit for simpler notation than others depending on things like a triplet feel.

I do think that a 4 in the unit implies a more 'straight' feel while an 8 implies a swung/triplet feel although, ironically, while "Money" feels straight in the 7/4 section (which follows the 'straight' vs. 'swung' logic) when the song shifts to 4/4 during the guitar solo, the drums are clearly tossing a triplet feel on the hi-hat.

And I think the decision to notate it with a large number on top is to help define phrasing without having to throw time signature changes.

The Pretenders example ("Tattooed Love Boys") sounds like 3 bars of 4/4 plus one bar of 3/4 cutting short what would be a complete 16 beat phrase.

[1,2,3,4][1,2,3,4][1,2,3,4][1,2,3]
[1,2,3,4][1,2,3,4][1,2,3,4][1,2,3]

And when playing that tune, I found it easier to count it like that or by counting to 8 then 7 - implying one bar of 8/4 + one bar of 7/4 to complete a phrase.

[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8][1,2,3,4,5,6,7]
[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8][1,2,3,4,5,6,7]

But notating that would be crazy having time signature changes either every 4th or every other bar so 15/4 for notation purposes seems to make a lot of sense. It's very straight - not swung - and there are 15 beats in every complete phrase. How you choose to count it is up to you, but for me, counting to 15 just gets complicated so I opt for 8 + 7.

 

[Saxn]

...
there are 15 beats in every complete phrase. How you choose to count it is up to you, but for me, counting to 15 just gets complicated so I opt for 8 + 7.

I do this. Exactly... can't see any practical reason it don't work!

 

[ryco]

I agree with what you say, Tzer, as far as using more complex time signatures to more accurately describe what is going on in a tune. But I guess my position is that a lot of the rhythmic information is implied or taken for granted by knowing the style a song is written/played in. That's why I used the example of jazz music where it is written in straight eighths instead of 6/8 or 12/8 for ease of reading, although the eighths are performed in "swing" style. Just being redundant to clarify my point.

This is why rock used to be commonly written and referred to as 8/8 or "straight eighths", to get rid of the implication of swung feel when reading.

Just for phun & totally IMO: one of the greatest messings with overall rhythm occurs in Hendrix's "Message to Love". He shifts the whole groove over by an eighth beat in the breakdown section (near the end of the tune) - and then brings it back. GENIUS! Used to think it was a mistake, but it occurs both on the live version (Band of Gypsys) and the studio track (Crash Landing).

 

[NWB]

Winner.

If you get a count in, then you're fine. Although Rock and Roil by Led Zep can still cause a few issues, in my experience. But that was sorted in an earlier post.

He, he. Nice typo!

Very appropriate!

 

[nashvillebill]

The intro to "Remedy" by the Black Crowes has been a struggle for several bands I've been in.

Over time I got so confused by various folks' interpretation that by now I've given up on counting it through.

 

[jaywa]

The intro to Hendrix's version of All Along the Watchtower always used to throw me.

Big time.

Van Halen "Hot for Teacher" is another one that's a be-otch to count off but thankfully us bassists have a clear-cut entry point anyway.

 

[Tanner5382]

The intro to this one almost always gets me: The James Gang - Funk 49# - YouTube

Funk #49 used to mess me up pretty bad, too. I always ended up rushing, and still do if I don't watch myself. Killer line, though. A lot of stuff going on. Dale Peters was/is the man. One of my favorite songs of all time.

 

[christoph h.]

Hmm... I'm sorry, but I think the discussion about 7/8 and and 7/4 is missing one important aspect. The pulse that is felt is what's important, any notation is just a crude way to put what we hear into something that can be communicated in the written form.

Now, take a look here:

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Please note the example about 3/4 vs. 6/8. Both have "six eights", but they are not the same at all.

7/8 is a compound meter, divided into one group of 3 and 2 groups of 2.

So back to "pulse" and how music is felt.

Every drummer I know will interpret 7/4 and 7/8 very differently. 7/4 will feel "even", while 7/8 will always feel "uneven" because there is one "pulse" that is longer than the others.

By the way, to me "The sound of Muzak" is in 7/4 and not 7/8 for the reasons stated above.

 

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

- If you are pretty familiar with this song, you instantly know where's the "1" . But it wasn't that clear for sure when you heard it for the first time.

- I know that the beginning of this one still raises some "huh?".

- Invalid Link Removed. On the section starting at 0:27, it wouldn't be a surprise if you have to think it (more than) twice to find the downbeat before the kick drum enters.

- And I have something to confess: I know where's the "1" in this song, but I understood it absolutely wrong during the countless times I spun that LP when I was a young boy. Because of that, I still have to concentrate A LOT to NOT to think that the "2" is the "1". Something similar happened when I heard Invalid Link Removed for the first time, and also had it wrong for a long while. Actually, I had to become a musician to realize and fix these two misconceptions, which still give me some problems if I'm not focused enough when playing those tunes.

EDIT: How about this one? After all these years, I'm not sure about what happens at the 8th measure (0:17 in the video). A 7/8 measure? I wouldn't have any doubts if that came from Rush or Tool. But coming from Aerosmith, I don't know what to think.