Is a College Degree Absolutely Necessary

[hrodbert696]

To the OP as well as the general debate: College is not strictly NECESSARY. People do make money without them. Also, a lot of things like building trades, plumbing, car repair, electricians, etc., work through apprenticeship programs and still make good money.

But it is ABSOLUTELY advisable to go anyway. College doesn't guarantee a great career, but college grads do make better money and have better careers on average. It far increases your opportunities and your options later on. Go into a mechanical occupation and that will pretty much be your career for the foreseeable future. College buys you options.

In addition, a lot of college -- the humanities courses -- are the only chance most people get to have a really focused, directed exploration of human experience and culture in literature, philosophy, history, etc. You can always set out to self-educate and read these things on your own, but frankly a college degree can open your eyes to the world you live in and get you out of the box all of us naturally live in.

If you like building things, study engineering. That would be the best of both worlds, I would think.

 

[Bongolation]

But it is ABSOLUTELY advisable to go anyway. College doesn't guarantee a great career, but college grads do make better money and have better careers on average.

And I've explained why this isn't causal nor predictable.

It far increases your opportunities and your options later on. Go into a mechanical occupation and that will pretty much be your career for the foreseeable future. College buys you options.

In most majors the only option it buys you is the opportunity to spend more time and money on more degrees.

In addition, a lot of college -- the humanities courses -- are the only chance most people get to have a really focused, directed exploration of human experience and culture in literature, philosophy, history, etc.

Which will qualify you for what lavishly-paid job?

My buddy the Columbia grad's stepson just got an honors degree in History from UC. He drives a bread truck.

That's typical for Liberal Arts grads unless they stay in school so long they eventually go pro and effectively never leave the campus.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

And I've explained why this isn't causal nor predictable.

One may not be able to attribute causality to it but it is predictable. Predictive validity is based on correlation; it doesn't necessarily require a causal connection. On average, people with degrees earn more than those who do not. Now, the criterion factor may not be education; it may be that those amibitious enough to finish college may have other factors than just their education that make them valuable assets to employers or allows them to be successful at starting their own enterprises. The fact of the matter is there is predictive validity in higher education being associated with higher earnings. That does not mean that everyone with a degree will earn higher wages than those who don't; there are always outliers and people who don't fall in the majority average...which leads me to my next point...

It's very hard to make a cogent analysis of the situation by giving some anecdotal evidence of people who went to school and didn't end up making a cool million. I can only speak of my experience, which I know may not generalize to everyone. I didn't go to college straight after high school. I went to a really crappy technical school. There's nothing wrong with technical schools; but I went to a diploma mill that wasn't even accredited. After I graduated, I was on the fast track to nowhere. I got one barley above minimum wage job with my graduate certificate, which lasted three months until I was laid off. I spent four years after high school in limbo. It was a career and existential crisis. In all seriousness, music was actually looking like the most attractive career option at the time, because the day gig outlook was horrible. I was a pretty intelligent person, but I really didn't have any skills or experience. I decided to go to college and was very successful. I then went to grad school and had even more opportunities.

Granted, I am very ambitious. Would I have succeeded without going to college? Casting aside a discussion about the subjectivity of what constitutes "success," I probably would have. However, I think it would have been a constant struggle up the mountain. It's all in what you want to do. Some people want to be rich. Some people want to have security. Some want the job they love, no matter what the pay check. No degree, trade school, college, or graduate/professional school: There is no universal answer. I do not regret my decision to go for higher education. YMMV

 

[mike_v_s]

My buddy the Columbia grad's stepson just got an honors degree in History from UC. He drives a bread truck.

That's typical for Liberal Arts grads...

There must be a lot of bread trucks out that way.

Mike

 

[sowder]

two years ago I would have agreed with you and said the college degree isnt' worth if you're smart and talented in your field.

Unfortunately the economy went quickly into the crapper, and I find myself being overlooked many times for not having the degree. Employers are must pickier and they can be. The employee pool is ridiculous in most fields because of the surplus of applicants. Unemployment is at all time high and the one thing that may distinguish you from other people begging for the same job is you got a 4 year degree. It is just the way it is now.

Finish school. Get the Bachelors. I speak from experience my friend.

 

[Munjibunga]

I want to give another answer. No, it's not absolutely necessary. But if you get a degree, you will have a thousand more options than if you don't. Your choice.

 

[fdeck]

To the OP, a degree isn't absolutely necessary, because very few things are absolutely necessary. Debating that claim is as useful as debating the claim that all dogs have four legs. Who cares? "Dogs have four legs" is a useful descriptive and predictive statement even if some dogs have fewer legs.

It's like the Gold Rush. Did everybody who went to California make it rich? No, some folks came home penniless, or even got killed. Is college beneficial? But it's indisputable that there was quite a lot of gold to be dug up.

College is like that. I would describe it as an opportunity for you to make the benefits of college outweigh the costs. Possible benefits include gaining skills that you combine with your own personal talents to make yourself marketable. Possible costs include not getting the degree that you want, or getting suckered into a field that offers limited career prospects.

My degree aside, I have found the education itself to be valuable to my career. I learned how to analyze complicated systems, develop and test hypotheses, predict results, and market my ideas. Has it made me wealthy? That's really beside the point, because I don't know what I would be doing right now without that education.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

To the OP, a degree isn't absolutely necessary, because very few things are absolutely necessary. Debating that claim is as useful as debating the claim that all dogs have four legs. Who cares? "Dogs have four legs" is a useful descriptive and predictive statement even if some dogs have fewer legs.

It's like the Gold Rush. Did everybody who went to California make it rich? No, some folks came home penniless, or even got killed. Is college beneficial? But it's indisputable that there was quite a lot of gold to be dug up.

College is like that. I would describe it as an opportunity for you to make the benefits of college outweigh the costs. Possible benefits include gaining skills that you combine with your own personal talents to make yourself marketable. Possible costs include not getting the degree that you want, or getting suckered into a field that offers limited career prospects.

My degree aside, I have found the education itself to be valuable to my career. I learned how to analyze complicated systems, develop and test hypotheses, predict results, and market my ideas. Has it made me wealthy? That's really beside the point, because I don't know what I would be doing right now without that education.

I totally agree with this post.

IME, education is what you make it. I've had people who have asked my counsel on how to treat college or grad school. I always say that you can look at it as a way to get a piece of paper or you can look at it as an opportunity to grow both as a professional and a person. The people who go just to get the piece of paper are missing the point and they may just end up being the people with the degree working at Starbucks (no offense to Starbucks workers, I have great respect for anyone who works a gig for a living). There are easy opportunities presented in a collegiate environment that may not be as easily accessible in the "real world" - for example, getting job experience. I can't speak for all campuses, but I found it easy to find campus work at the universities I've been to. Right now, it may be harder to find a gig off of campus if you don't have a large resume. You may not be working at a job related to your major, but it's an opportunity to develop generalizable skills and network with people.

 

[scorpionldr]

I'll be graduating in June, and everyone I talk to says that if you don't get atleast Bachelor's Degree, you are not going to go anywhere. Obviously, going to college is beneficial, but I have alot of criticism about how people view college. I'm currently just finished college stuff, my intended major is mechanical engineering. To be honest, engineering does sound incredibly boring, but I suppose that is the only thing I have any interest in studying at college.

A college degree does not automatically make you smart. You could be an idiot, spend all of your college years partying, and barely scrape by with C's. From what everyone has told me about how necessary it is to go to college, it seems like an idiot with a college degree will get hired over someone intelligent and hard-working simply because of a piece of paper. IMO, that is not right.

Most kids I know are expecting college to be a huge party. I'm sure college would sound much more fun if Mommy and Daddy payed to send me to California, and gave me spending money. I will be paying my own tuition, and living at home until I can make enough money to move out. Not exactly looking forward to the next couple of years.

Anyway, the reason I brought this up is that I'm having a dilemma. I'm a smart kid, and could probably do well in college. However, the jobs I'm actually interested in are trades. I have considered being an auto mechanic. I'm kind of interested in carpentry, woodworking, and metal-working/welding. Call me strange, but I like this kind of work. I have a knack for building and fixing things. Unfortunately alot of trades don't get paid very well, so I need to choose wisely.

Just about my entire family is dead against this. I've got several aunts that are teachers, and a few engineers in the family. I have my grandmother who threatens me with hauntings when she dies if I don't go to college. My dad has no problem with me doing this kind of work, as long as I get a 4 year degree first, which is not at all logical. If I'm doing trade-work, I'm gonna need training in that trade, not a college degree. So basically I'm deciding between doing something I'm interested in and being guilted by everybody, or going along with everyone's BS. I might enjoy engineering, but being blackmailed and threatened into college since I was 5 years old has had the exact opposite effect. Going to college because I'm forced to is setting me up to be unhappy.

Am I absolutely insane for considering an alternative to college, and thinking that a college degree has become extremely overrated?

I'm also interested in hearing from some engineers, maybe you can help me out. Maybe suggest a field in engineering based on the trades I'm interested in? I'm a hands-on type of person, and hate the idea of spending all day at work at my desk.

Look, your screwed if you do, and your screwed if you don't. A college degree isn't going to magically take you where you want to be. That should be a given. You like working on cars, you like working on stuff. There ARE seven days in a week, right? (don't answer)

What I'm saying is, do what you want with your downtime, if it makes you happy, but you'll probably have more opportunities in life if you have a degree in SOMETHING. I mean, I graduated in music; I was always into it, I always wanted to play music, I still (even if the dream has gotten pretty hazy over a few years) dream of getting a great lineup for a band together and making it to tour. I had a lucky turn not becoming a MUSIC EDUCATOR, which if I wasn't sabotaged by my professors, I may have actually became one. Why? I don't dig kids. Not noisy young ones, and not tough guy high school kids.

I have a degree now, and I'm planning on making another career direction, I know I can get there that much easier because I don't get to repeat the Englishes and Foreign Languages and Philosophies and Histories that get crammed down a person's throat. Things that (specifically English skills) REALLY COUNT (!!!) IF YOU WANT TO GET PEOPLE TO LISTEN WITHOUT JUDGING YOU! That and I don't have to take that crap again if I want to continue my education (seeing as this glorious economy has landed me unemployed).

The major points of this are: You know what you love, and thats great. I'm sure that there are a lot of people out in the world who really haven't a clue what they love anymore. But your family is RIGHT! Say you end up in a pickle with carpentry,or craftsmanship in general that A: disables you, B: you screw up and your not well respected anymore, or C: you might actually love to HATE it!? Its going to come in handy to have a backup plan with a college degree. No matter how boring it is, no matter how much you hate partying (or love it, its unclear from your initial post), its four years out of your life that will go quick. Work hard and play hard in there, and THEN then work on working harder so your butt isn't kicked out of a job, out of a home, and into the street. Thats all.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

No it is not.

 

[hrodbert696]

And I've explained why this isn't causal nor predictable.


In most majors the only option it buys you is the opportunity to spend more time and money on more degrees.


Which will qualify you for what lavishly-paid job?

My buddy the Columbia grad's stepson just got an honors degree in History from UC. He drives a bread truck.

That's typical for Liberal Arts grads unless they stay in school so long they eventually go pro and effectively never leave the campus.

OK, for some reason this doesn't reproduce my quotes within Bongo's post. So, point by point:

One can hypothesize that college grads make better money than non-grads not because of the degree but because more success-minded people go to college than not, that the difference is not the degree but the personality. Unfortunately, that's sheer assumption. I've never seen any study that can reliably sort people by personality and compare that to income. Maybe I just haven't been looking. The actual studies that are out there track education.

The whole thing about majors is short-sighted. First: There are some fields - engineering, accounting, nursing, the sciences -- where the employer does look for a particular degree and anyone who says there's no link between the degree and salary is not dealing with reality.

Second: There are other fields - marketing, public relations, etc. -- where they are not necessarily looking for a degree in that field but they want college grads because the degree gives them some hope that this person can process information, interpret communications, express themselves in writing effectively, etc. Not all individuals with college degrees really can do these things effectively, and some people without the degrees can, but the fact is that many of those job searches will use the degree as a screening factor.

Thirdly, there are also professional degrees - law, medicine, also the MBA, or a Master's in Education -- which one cannot go onto without first having an undergrad degree. It need not be pre-law or pre-med; Law School deans' preferred undergrad majors to recruit from are English, Philosophy, History, and Political Science. Last I heard lawyers and doctors made good money. That major = either job in major or unemployment is cardboard thinking.

There will always be anecdotal evidence about college grads driving bread trucks and high school dropouts who are millionaires. No one who understands how things work denies that these are possible outcomes, or that going to college guarantees anything. But the numbers don't lie, and as far as careers go, college does pay off, even going to non-elite schools btw.

On a whole other level, by the way, who wants to live in a society where higher learning is treated as optional? Where people don't learn to question their history (or indeed to know it), to explore their literature, to investigate how the natural world operates? It scares the hell out of me to think that people are going around saying that understanding the world is ok as an excuse for rich kids to have a four-year party but "real" people don't need to bother with such things, they should just keep their heads down and concentrate on making money. Good bye democracy.

 

[Stumbo]

The only thing absolutely necessary is for your heart to beat the next time. Everything else is optional.

 

[A-Step-Towards]

Currently it pretty much it is , welcome to america its a rat race to the grave , 40+ hours a week. Why should a doctor make 10 times more then a construction worker? sure the doctor puts in more time in education but does it warrant that much pay increase? I mean they both provide services, we need doctors and we need construction workers but why the pay gap? The doctor should recieve a bit more but not that much more.

I feel everyone should get a base pay if your a high school graduate , a base pay if you have a 2 year degree , 4 year etc. Do you know most pilots spend 100,000$ on schooling but make 20,000$ a year?

I am 20 and have done 7 terms of school i have like 90 credits and am debating if i will go back next year , i kinda stopped caring. I only go to school because i enjoy learning and going to college allows me to think more outside the box , i have been given more tools in a sense. However , people look at college in different ways. I could pass and be drunk everyday if i wanted, anyone with money can get a degree its not that hard , its just giving up the time.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Currently it pretty much it is , welcome to america its a rat race to the grave , 40+ hours a week. Why should a doctor make 10 times more then a construction worker? sure the doctor puts in more time in education but does it warrant that much pay increase? I mean they both provide services, we need doctors and we need construction workers but why the pay gap? The doctor should recieve a bit more but not that much more.

I feel everyone should get a base pay if your a high school graduate , a base pay if you have a 2 year degree , 4 year etc. Do you know most pilots spend 100,000$ on schooling but make 20,000$ a year?

I am 20 and have done 7 terms of school i have like 90 credits and am debating if i will go back next year , i kinda stopped caring. I only go to school because i enjoy learning and going to college allows me to think more outside the box , i have been given more tools in a sense. However , people look at college in different ways. I could pass and be drunk everyday if i wanted, anyone with money can get a degree its not that hard , its just giving up the time.

Commie....




The part about getting a degree being easy isn't exactly the whole story. Degree's aren't equal, different fields of study have different difficulties. Heck, different universities have different difficulties. Not to mention how degree's are graded and whatnot.

This thread keeps circling around to pay. Sure, often having an education and a few bits of paper will help give you the opportunity to earn more than if you didn't have them. But pay isn't the be all and end all of it. It gives you the opportunity to work in a job you enjoy. As long as you are making enough money to get by and support your family (if applicable), then what's the problem!

 

[rakirksey]

Currently it pretty much it is , welcome to america its a rat race to the grave , 40+ hours a week. Why should a doctor make 10 times more then a construction worker? sure the doctor puts in more time in education but does it warrant that much pay increase? I mean they both provide services, we need doctors and we need construction workers but why the pay gap? The doctor should recieve a bit more but not that much more.

I feel everyone should get a base pay if your a high school graduate , a base pay if you have a 2 year degree , 4 year etc. Do you know most pilots spend 100,000$ on schooling but make 20,000$ a year?

As far a Doctor vs. Construction Worker ... last time I checked a Doctor needs a minimum of 23 years of education minimum (12 years of pirmary school, 4 years of College, 4 years of Medical School and 3 years of residency for primary care) and a Construction Worker needs 0. So I could definitely see the pay gap.

As far as pilots, the pilots that pay that much for schooling is the minority. Most pilots come out of the military and get paid to learn to fly.

 

[fdeck]

Currently it pretty much it is , welcome to america its a rat race to the grave , 40+ hours a week. Why should a doctor make 10 times more then a construction worker? sure the doctor puts in more time in education but does it warrant that much pay increase? I mean they both provide services, we need doctors and we need construction workers but why the pay gap? The doctor should recieve a bit more but not that much more.

I feel everyone should get a base pay if your a high school graduate , a base pay if you have a 2 year degree , 4 year etc. Do you know most pilots spend 100,000$ on schooling but make 20,000$ a year?

I am 20 and have done 7 terms of school i have like 90 credits and am debating if i will go back next year , i kinda stopped caring. I only go to school because i enjoy learning and going to college allows me to think more outside the box , i have been given more tools in a sense. However , people look at college in different ways. I could pass and be drunk everyday if i wanted, anyone with money can get a degree its not that hard , its just giving up the time.

Enjoying learning is a good enough reason to stay in school. That, and you've still got a chance to take a course in economics that might help you understand why doctors earn more than construction workers.

 

[A-Step-Towards]

haha i got 3 replies to what i wrote, i feel popular but not in a good sense. Its not worth me arguing i am just one man , i cant change anything.

In short, if you have the cash and the time go to school , if you dont have the cash financial aid flips the bill , free ride enjoy it. I dont pay anything for my schooling financial aid pays books , tuition and gives me 500$ each term and have for 6th terms ,7th next week.

 

[Munjibunga]

Currently it pretty much it is , welcome to america its a rat race to the grave , 40+ hours a week. Why should a doctor make 10 times more then a construction worker? sure the doctor puts in more time in education but does it warrant that much pay increase? I mean they both provide services, we need doctors and we need construction workers but why the pay gap? The doctor should recieve a bit more but not that much more.

I feel everyone should get a base pay if your a high school graduate , a base pay if you have a 2 year degree , 4 year etc. Do you know most pilots spend 100,000$ on schooling but make 20,000$ a year?

I am 20 and have done 7 terms of school i have like 90 credits and am debating if i will go back next year , i kinda stopped caring. I only go to school because i enjoy learning and going to college allows me to think more outside the box , i have been given more tools in a sense. However , people look at college in different ways. I could pass and be drunk everyday if i wanted, anyone with money can get a degree its not that hard , its just giving up the time.

It's called capitalism. The extra effort a doctor puts into education is significantly more than the effort one expends to become a construction worker. Further, there are far fewer doctors than construction workers, and the service provided by the doctor is more critical and immediate than that provided by the construction worker, so society is willing to pay more money for that service.

Your assessment sounds a lot like "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" (communism). When the rewards of undertaking an ambitious career path are taken away, there's no reason to follow that path. I went to Russia in the '90s, and it was immediately clear why they were a virtual third world country. As our guide put it after I asked why nothing seemed to happen after 11:00 a.m., "The government pretends to pay us, and we pretend to work."

As a scientist and engineer, I made plenty of money in the last 25 years of my career. That's because people value the feeling of security that their structures aren't going to go sliding down the mountain or collapse during an earthquake. I certainly don't apologize for making more money than the bulldozer operators I saw on the job.

As for those poor pilots, they made choices just like the rest of us. There are a lot of pilots who pull down six-figure money. That's also as a result of choices they made. You can sit there and wish someone would give up money they work hard to earn to redistribute it to people who don't feel like working so hard, but you'll have more luck if you move to a socialist state and leech off them.

Growing up, my family had approximately zero money. I served in the Marine Corps in the late '60s (check Wikipedia to discover what was going on then) to get the GI Bill to help pay for my college education. After I got out of the Marines, I took 16 to 18 units a semester and worked part-time to get through college as expeditiously as possible. After all that, I am seriously disinclined to let some government wonk tell me I'm going to have to work for a wage he and his fellow wonks set for me, just so they can give some of my money to people who don't want to work for it. I already was paying over 40 percent of my income in taxes. If I was on your set salary, the wonks would have been getting a lot less money from me.

Regarding the rat race, I suppose you could label a productive life that way. For me, even as the leader of my company, I developed lifelong friendships with a large number of educated professionals who also didn't use "the rat race" as a cop-out, rather, they chose to make the world a better place through the work they do. Society likes that, and compensates them generously for it.

Finally, because of the choices I made in my life, I can and do have any gear I want.

 

[bmc]

We have been very fortunate to have ben able to put our daughters in excellent international schools. One in now finishing an undergrad degree, the other as a year to go. Both will be pursuing master degrees.

My wife and I have always maintained that doing well in school, going to the right schools and getting a good education gives you more options in life.

It's that simple.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

It's called capitalism. The extra effort a doctor puts into education is significantly more than the effort one expends to become a construction worker. Further, there are far fewer doctors than construction workers, and the service provided by the doctor is more critical and immediate than that provided by the construction worker, so society is willing to pay more money for that service.

Your assessment sounds a lot like "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" (communism). When the rewards of undertaking an ambitious career path are taken away, there's no reason to follow that path. I went to Russia in the '90s, and it was immediately clear why they were a virtual third world country. As our guide put it after I asked why nothing seemed to happen after 11:00 a.m., "The government pretends to pay us, and we pretend to work."

As a scientist and engineer, I made plenty of money in the last 25 years of my career. That's because people value the feeling of security that their structures aren't going to go sliding down the mountain or collapse during an earthquake. I certainly don't apologize for making more money than the bulldozer operators I saw on the job.

As for those poor pilots, they made choices just like the rest of us. There are a lot of pilots who pull down six-figure money. That's also as a result of choices they made. You can sit there and wish someone would give up money they work hard to earn to redistribute it to people who don't feel like working so hard, but you'll have more luck if you move to a socialist state and leech off them.

Growing up, my family had approximately zero money. I served in the Marine Corps in the late '60s (check Wikipedia to discover what was going on then) to get the GI Bill to help pay for my college education. After I got out of the Marines, I took 16 to 18 units a semester and worked part-time to get through college as expeditiously as possible. After all that, I am seriously disinclined to let some government wonk tell me I'm going to have to work for a wage he and his fellow wonks set for me, just so they can give some of my money to people who don't want to work for it. I already was paying over 40 percent of my income in taxes. If I was on your set salary, the wonks would have been getting a lot less money from me.

Regarding the rat race, I suppose you could label a productive life that way. For me, even as the leader of my company, I developed lifelong friendships with a large number of educated professionals who also didn't use "the rat race" as a cop-out, rather, they chose to make the world a better place through the work they do. Society likes that, and compensates them generously for it.

Finally, because of the choices I made in my life, I can and do have any gear I want.

Not that I necessarily agree with you, but its always good to get a reminder that behind that cryptic veil of one-line posts is a mind at work.


I've always thought that the inherent thrust of the argument (capitalism promotes go-getting, communism promotes laziness) could be the subject of a really wild experiment, since I'm not sure that the idea isn't based in anything more concrete than the societal conditioning we get from being raised in a capitalist nation.

Really, it'd just be another variant on the Nature vs. Nurture bit (which has shown itself to be a bit of a false dichotomy, but that's neither here nor there).