Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
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Is All Tube Worth It?
- Thread starter bassgod76
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Crap! I'm lactose intolerant. I'm screwed!
In all seriousness, I like Hybrid class D micro amps. Solid state was was my thing before but I like the added grit and gain of the hybrids. Tubes sound awesome but just don't suit the way I like to play and who I like to play with.
My GK MB Fusion makes me GAS free. Not even the slightest bit of gassiness.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,051
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Interesting post... I have indeed spent time over the past years working on some discrete solid state preamps. It is possible to get a different feel and dynamics depending on the approach. Marketability would of course be a challenge given the focus of the consumer mind and the years of historical retail marketing.
I've read that Genz Benz has the best of both SS, and Tube with it's Streamliner amps. I've got major G.A.S to try one. I love the sound and feel of tube amps, and I've found that a SS really can't copy it. My WT550 gives me a nice fat sound, but nothing like a tube.
+1 and -1
I agree that we can't distinctively point out out a low distortion figure but it's distortion that gives a tube amp it's "stamp" , it's sound.
If you A/B (blind test) a very low distortion tube amp (hi-fi) and a SS one with a bass as source in a bass cab, you won't be able to hear a difference.
Ampeg and such have a high distortion ratio , and that's what's pleasing to some.
IME
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,051
- 5
- 221,021
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I spent many years standing next to a Hammond and pair of Leslies. For years companies tried to capture that precise sound in a smaller lighter setup and in later days to model it using DSP and/or software. It is a recent development that decades of effort have yielded models which can satisfy the old guys who originally cut their teeth on real B3 and L147/L122 setups. Personally I believe that the same can be said for simple tube emulation. Finally amps are getting to the stage where the tube emulation is convincing enough, but this is a fairly recent development.
Tube amps are not just harmonic distortion. They effect the bass signal in many other ways. Speakers behave differently when they are connected to a tube amp than a solidstate amp running a "modeled" version of that amp. There are differences in damping output impedance etc.
All the modeling I have ever tried are very good at simulating the preamp side of things but utterly fail at the power amp side.
To me saying that all you need is an amp sim and a power amp to replace a tube head is like a guitarist saying all they need is an ocatve box and a bass amp to replace a bass player.
In the end it comes down to taste. If you need real tube tone for fat cleans or warm overdriven tones then get the real thing. If you want the 4 band parametric eq and lightning quick bottom end, get solidstate.
BTW My bass 400 does a very good emulation of solidstate.
For those of us that are experienced with mic preamps the difference between discrete solidstate and monolithic opamp solidstate is real enough. Of course Class A discrete is an overused marketing term too.
I have 2 tube mic pre's. One of which is hybrid solidstate/tube. I also have several discrete SS mic pres. They all involve transformers. Funny though, I recently found out one of my pres (actually an old mixer) has very early opamps in it. I didnt recognize the SIPP as an opamp so I assumed it was all discrete. Of course now I refuse to accept that I ever liked the way it sounds!
And I also have entirely chip opamp based mic pres. They have great specs but tend to be flat sounding.
Another aspect of this debate for me is cabinet selection. Throwing a 60W(2xKT88)amp on top of a compact,modern neo 2x12 only gets you so far, the same amp through a pair of JBL D140's with significant sized cabinet volume yields entirely different results. It's really not just a matter of amplifier only, drivers/cabinets have to be "weighed" into the equation as well, IMO anyway.
The Streamliner is still a hybrid, though. It does not have a tube power section, though lots and lots of people think it's a great amp and I'd like to try one myself (though I can't afford to be buying more amps right now).
It would be interesting if Genz Benz made an amp with the Streamliner's preamp and a tube power section.
Cabs indeed do matter. Though I don't think neo vs. not neo matters as much as the specific characteristics of the speakers, how the box they're in is tuned, what the whole thing does in terms of frequency response.
that is a slippery slope.
Next thing you now you wont really make an effort to land on the one for the changes because, heck, with the whole band playing who can tell if I miss one little note?
In the end I decided to go with a G-K 550 Fusion head & a 4-12" NEO cab. Side by side, the all tube has the edge but I can get plenty close to what I was looking for. If I had the $$$(and the back), I'd probably go with the SVT & 8-10" cab.
Just trying to keep my statements in context. The cliche was thrown out of nobody building a tube amp to sound like SS.
Read old hifi magazines and books and they were all about trying to get a tube amp that had transparent signal reproduction. Which also included lowering the distortions, of all types.
In this day and age you can't build a practical kilowatt tube amp that is as transparent as an easily affordable SS. The SS is transparent up to levels that FOH has used for years. You can always inject distortion into the SS amp. And get what you want at any level.
Well you're not going to get the close up Leslie Dopler effect from mono amps. And Mic'd Leslie through FOH defeated it anyhow. I'd bet the Leslie effect is only good at smaller gigs.
And Hammond organs are "samples". They are a recording of a waveform on the edge of a tone wheel that spins in front of a magnetic head to reproduce the waveform. Sampled based keyboards are almost the same but they store the samples in digital format, but it still comes out analog.
And Hammond organs were hated by many string woodwind players as the lost jobs in studios and churches. Studio's were picketed when Hammonds were brought in.
Churches that couldn't afford pipe organs got Hammonds, but I bet there was a lot of "It'll never sound like a pipe organ" chatter among the parishioners. And before that pipe organs got "It'll never sound like an orchestra"
Before that "What happened to our log drums?"
Good choice. Tone is all from the pre-amp - ask GK. And now you can get the same tone at any level. Plus you have a preset. It's louder, and got a good warranty.
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