Is All Tube Worth It?

[Luckydog]

I dont care one whit (whats a whit by the way?) to learn the audio science, but i greatly prefer tube heads and sealed cabs, regardless of if i am going through a pa. My svt's and v4's give me a pleasing punchy round note with textural depth i have yet to hear from ss amps. So i'll continue hauling the heavy iron.

 

[Jim C]

Just trying to keep my statements in context. The cliche was thrown out of nobody building a tube amp to sound like SS.

The statement was:
"Can't recall anyone marketing an amp that "sounds like SS" since discrete component construction hasn't been affordable for years"

The intent was that no one advertises their gear sounds like discrete electronics when the amp is built from chips.

Have spent many hours on old discrete Neve consoles with transformers for mic pre's and those built with opamps.
They do not sound alike even with the EQ off.
Pro recording and some audiofiles use this information when selecting equipment; MI sales are based more on what the buying public perceives as cool or who was last seen plaing it.

Just an observation.

 

[JimmyM]

i think it's really dopey that so many people have this misconception that only people looking for distortion use tube amps. do you know why the svt was invented? so people could have a tube amp with clean headroom and still be able to play loudly. it was only until you kids with your 2000w power amps came along that anyone ever thought of tube amps as only doing dirty sounds. that 3% or 5% or whatever distortion stat? that only comes into play when your cranking pretty loudly. otherwise the svt may be the cleanest amp i ever played through...and i like it that way. when you crank a 300w tube amp to the point where it's as loud as a b-15 turned up all the way, it's pretty loud and totally clean.

so if i state to everyone i'm ignoring seamonkey's usual uninformed anti-tube nonsense, does that count as ignoring him?

 

[ddbassGA]

Jimmy,
You have NOT EVER successfully ignored seamonkey.

 

[Korladis]

I mostly use my tube amp set dirty, but today I was fiddling with the settings and played it totally clean for a while. Even played a little slap. Plenty loud.

 

[cheezewiz]

Jimmy,
You have NOT EVER successfully ignored seamonkey.

Sometimes ignorance should not be ignored.

 

[seamonkey]

The statement was:
"Can't recall anyone marketing an amp that "sounds like SS" since discrete component construction hasn't been affordable for years"

The intent was that no one advertises their gear sounds like discrete electronics when the amp is built from chips.

Have spent many hours on old discrete Neve consoles with transformers for mic pre's and those built with opamps.
They do not sound alike even with the EQ off.
Pro recording and some audiofiles use this information when selecting equipment; MI sales are based more on what the buying public perceives as cool or who was last seen plaing it.

Just an observation.

Oh OK - read that wrong.

Yeah - the overall public doesn't always get it right in any industry. Preferred tastes for anything seems to center around familiarity. Only once in a while, a new sound will catch on.

I would thing the Neve went from discrete to op-amps in what they hoped to be improved characteristics of their gear. It unfortunately changed the familiar sound.

The advantage we have today is we can add some familar sound back in with new technologies. Old and newer Neve if you want.

 

[agedhorse]

It would be interesting if Genz Benz made an amp with the Streamliner's preamp and a tube power section.

Well, sort of. I have connected a Streamliner preamp up to the power amp of our Diablo 100 (guitar amp, modified for bass, with 6L6's, I have also doubled up output stages and driven an output transformer harder, getting around 160 watts, and it does have the tube amp feel, but then using the class D output stage it still has mich of the tube amp feel but also has some other things that were lacking in the tube amp itself. IMO, it is more useable to more people in more different applications.

We have also mated the preamp up to some other popular tube power amps and pretty much the same thing. Then you factor in the size, weight and cost and it just doesn't make sense to most players. There will be some that prefer the tube power amp, and for those folks that's what they should play. For everybody else, the class D mates up quite nicely to the tube preamp IMO.

 

[GregC]

No, you're not missing anything except a sore back and expensive tube replacements. The tonal differences aren't that significant in a gigging situation, and the only reason to consider a tube amp is for authenticity in a tribute band. If you need the tube sound, there are plenty of stomp boxes out there that will emulate it well enough for a crowded gig. Your audience won't have a clue. That's it.

So why ya got all them expensive amps and cabs, Munji? You could DI straight to the board and use a Behringer combo for stage volume. And if there's no PA, bring the cheapest loud amp and cab you can find.

 

[nocontrols]

ss=milk,.. while tubes=cream, IMHO.

This is actually the best way of putting it that I've heard. That's a brilliant analogy.

As far as I can tell, the main difference is texture and density of tone, if tone can be perceived to have density. Tube tone is thicker.

They say tubes are warmer and darker but I can get really warm, dark tones out of SS so it's not enough of a difference to merit the extra cash but I reserve the right to change my mind. I'm a solid state guy for now.

 

[nocontrols]

No, you're not missing anything except a sore back and expensive tube replacements. The tonal differences aren't that significant in a gigging situation, and the only reason to consider a tube amp is for authenticity in a tribute band. If you need the tube sound, there are plenty of stomp boxes out there that will emulate it well enough for a crowded gig. Your audience won't have a clue. That's it.

This is true but you're not supposed to say it aloud. You're like the kid who announced that the emporer didn't have any clothes on.

Let the illusion live on. The tube fanatics... they need it.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

IMO an all-tube amp has a tone that Hybrids and SS amps can't fully duplicate. If you prefer that sound, then an all tube amp is the way to go.

Yes, higher powered all-tube amps are typically heavier than most hybrids and SS amps, but if the all-tube tone is important to you, transporting one wouldn't be that big of a deal.

FWIW my rack contains a Crest CA9 SS power amp and a Demeter tube preamp; I think it's total weight is pretty close to that of an SVT2-Pro head, but to me, the sound, wattage and flexibility of my rack is worth it.

I personally don't view an all-tube amp any less reliable than a Hybrid or a SS amp.

I haven't had too much luck with the later generation Ampeg all-tube heads that I used to own. Other bassists sound fantastic through them, but for whatever reason, I don't.

But I used to borrow an early 70's SVT stack that sounded fantastic, -one of the best bass tones I've ever heard. Maybe one day I can afford to buy one of the originals for myself.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Well, sort of. I have connected a Streamliner preamp up to the power amp of our Diablo 100 (guitar amp, modified for bass, with 6L6's, I have also doubled up output stages and driven an output transformer harder, getting around 160 watts, and it does have the tube amp feel, but then using the class D output stage it still has mich of the tube amp feel but also has some other things that were lacking in the tube amp itself. IMO, it is more useable to more people in more different applications.

We have also mated the preamp up to some other popular tube power amps and pretty much the same thing. Then you factor in the size, weight and cost and it just doesn't make sense to most players. There will be some that prefer the tube power amp, and for those folks that's what they should play. For everybody else, the class D mates up quite nicely to the tube preamp IMO.

which begs the question, what makes a tube amp heavy? The tubes arent very heavy. The PCBs and knobs are about the same as any other amp. I am hoping there can be some improvement in the power supply used on tube amps, maybe they can not only bring the weight down, but perhaps give us some power modeling? Tube or diode rectification modes, brownout mode, stiff mode etc.
Then you would just have to get greater efficiencies for the output transformer. Or just fill it with helium.

 

[nocontrols]

that is a slippery slope.
Next thing you now you wont really make an effort to land on the one for the changes because, heck, with the whole band playing who can tell if I miss one little note?

I think being anal retentive and detail-obsessed can be a slippery slope, also because it's not long before you're missing the forest for the trees. I once saw an online discussion where some guy was obsessed with the density and vibrational properties of the wood that his speaker cabinets were made out of. While that might be a concern, you can totally crawl inside your own head thinking about it and completely lose focus on what counts. It doesn't REALLY matter.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

...do you know why the svt was invented? so people could have a tube amp with clean headroom and still be able to play loudly....the svt may be the cleanest amp i ever played through...and i like it that way.

This sums up that early 70's SVT stack that I used to borrow 100%.

My personal experience with the SVT-CL and SVT2-Pro (played through an SLM-era 810E cab) that I once owned were quite different. No matter how I adjusted eq settings, it sounded too "Crunchy" at higher volumes -for my taste.

 

[seamonkey]

which begs the question, what makes a tube amp heavy? The tubes arent very heavy. The PCBs and knobs are about the same as any other amp. I am hoping there can be some improvement in the power supply used on tube amps, maybe they can not only bring the weight down, but perhaps give us some power modeling? Tube or diode rectification modes, brownout mode, stiff mode etc.
Then you would just have to get greater efficiencies for the output transformer. Or just fill it with helium.

Why do you have to have a big tube amp? How about a milliwatt class A, that can be swithed to class-AB. Then run this into a reactive dummy load. This is just like running a all tube amp into a speaker, and taking the output off the speaker.

You can't tell me with all the pre-amps out there that this isn't already done. An all tube low power amp acting as a pre-amp.

You could build this for a few pounds. Then run the output of the reactive load to a DI and send to a class-d with SMPS which also is only a couple of pounds.

With all the hybrids this has got to be already done also.

I think this tube path can't touch solid state is worrying about purism to extremes. In a big show it's going to go through FOH SS anyhow.

 

[JimmyM]

This is true but you're not supposed to say it aloud. You're like the kid who announced that the emporer didn't have any clothes on.

Let the illusion live on. The tube fanatics... they need it.

no, actually i don't need anything. i play what i want and i don't really care what anyone thinks about it. not even munji...and if i cared what anyone thought, it would be him.



i think it's absolutely lame to use the "audience can't tell" excuse. let's all use behringer rigs if that's the case. ever see munji's amp collection? trust me...nobody buys the stuff he buys if they think the audience can't tell the difference.

 

[KeithAlanK]

The "heavy" nature of tube amps is their massive transformers--one to supply enough voltage for the preamp and tubes, and the other one for matching the high-voltage to your speakers.
For some reason I suspect that this is a big part of why they sound and "feel" so different.
Solidstate and chip-based amps run at lower voltages with little weenie power supplies (wall warts!?! on preamps) and to me have a weak and under-powered sound compared to big tube monsters where there are 600 volts screaming through the circuitry.
A good tube amp is super clean if you run it with the master volume under halfway up, so buy big.

 

[nocontrols]

no, actually i don't need anything. i play what i want and i don't really care what anyone thinks about it. not even munji...and if i cared what anyone thought, it would be him.



i think it's absolutely lame to use the "audience can't tell" excuse. let's all use behringer rigs if that's the case. ever see munji's amp collection? trust me...nobody buys the stuff he buys if they think the audience can't tell the difference.

Like I said above, I do think there's a difference between SS and tube tone but I just don't think it's so fully pronounced and integral to my sound that it merits an absolute insistance one way or another. And I don't think the audience particularly cares, either, but I guess that's just anecdotal and relative to my experience.

Sorry about that. I do respect your opinion, though. The "emporer has no clothes" reference was just me being silly.

 

[Korladis]

I prefer tubes, but my backup amp is a solid state unit. Sounds decent enough to take over should anything happen to the primary amp.