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Is anyone playing current Top 40?

No, "Don't Start Now" isn't a jam. It's a well crafted pop hit that CAN be played live with real musicians. Notice the bass player switch between bass guitar and key bass.


I think you may have missed the idiom of calling a song a "jam" that @two fingers was using... and he acknowledged that there were some exceptions in modern pop to his general characterization of most of it.

I haven't tried out this particular one, but I would propose a test: play "Don't Stop Now" and something like "September" or "Le Freak" to the same crowd. I hypothesize that, while you will have people dancing to Dua Lipa, you'll have a different degree of response to Chic or Earth Wind & Fire. Repeat the experiment five years from now and the difference will be even more pronounced. "Don't Stop Now" is a decent workmanlike song. It's got a groove and you can dance to it just fine. But it's not memorable.

See above.

Not really - the studio recording of "Don't Stop Now" (I assume the "above" you're pointing me to) was either recorded with instruments or else its protools settings were programmed to imitate real instruments. It's a pretty simple chord progression and groove that a capable cover band could figure out in ten minutes. Not the kind of thing I was talking about.

Here's a sample of my friend's originals that we were contemplating:


It's not that it's a bad song - it works in its genre and for its audience and all. But it's a lot of hanging whole notes, depends on studio processing to create interest. Play it live with instruments as it's recorded and you're clearing the dance floor as everyone decides this is a good time to get a drink. I didn't say it couldn't be arranged for a cover band to make a good version of it, it could. But it would require more time and effort to create a live-band arrangement that would be worth performing. If you have the time and doing that arrangement is your best use of it, awesome. In our case, she was headed for school in Scotland in a few weeks and there was no way we were going to get a great arrangement made and rehearsed in time to perform it.
 
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I agree with some of this and disagree with some.

A song can be as well-crafted as a fine mahogany desk but, if it doesn't have that x factor, if it doesn't, as you say, speak to a population of people, it's a well-crafted song that will just remain in obscurity forever. How many incredible songs and albums exist in the heaps and heaps of musical waste produced every day.

I am NOT saying the modern music listener or consumer is stupid. I have to correct you there. Culture is just an ever-evolving, mutating, growing thing. Pop music, ever since the Rhythm and Blues bands caused the grand migration of the youth market from the swing era, it's been culture by young people, for young people.
Rock and Roll is just young people playing electric guitars in rhythm and blues bands and singing obliquely about sex. This was a perfect storm of technology(electric guitar, mass media), the clashing of youth culture with the anti-sex, conservative older generation, and post war economic growth where teenagers could spend pocket money on 45s. This is all happening in a constitutionally free, but socially conservative society. This created a powder keg of fiendish fervor for pop music. A young attractive person singing obliquely about sex to fast rhythm and blues with these wild technological things called electric guitars. Can you imagine how EXCITING that must have been? My GOD. As it happens, most of that early boogie woogie rock and roll is pretty lousy from a writing standpoint, but as you say, a hit was a hit.

Culture moved on, experimented more. The Beach Boys cross-germinated with extremely popular music, vocal jazz from yester-year, and bach, making a super broad audience more open to sophisticated music in pop.

I could go on and on. Kurt Cobain single-handedly destroyed the hair metal scene. They were all caught with their leopard skinned pants down overnight. But just like the beatles, in my opinion, Nirvana spearheaded the movement because the songs were THAT strong. There were other contemporaneous grunge bands that could have been the golden idol of that movement, but I believe Kurt was because Kurt had the SONGS. Just like any british beat group could have caused a Mania. The Beatles did because they had Yesterday.

getting kind of in the weeds here. My point is, the musical landscape today isn't about the song. It's kind a fashion thing, a lifestyle brand, a celebrity worship thing, an "american idol" thing like, fame ITSELF is being sold rather than the actual art.

I know I sound like a grump. I'm really not. I'm totally fine with modern music and I understand its appeal. But I will not relent in saying the writing is generally very bad, and the reason for that is, 18-25 year old attractive kids tend not to be master songwriters. When a kid that young has that much songwriting ability it's an extremely magical thing. It's only happened a few times in history. The rest of the time, back in the 1940s all the way through the late 1990s, young attractive people did the singing, and good songwriters did the writing.

That stopped because culture decided it's VERY important that whomever is singing the song wrote it themselves. Some kind of fetish with "authenticity" or something. To me it's like expecting the woman who voiced the singing voice of Jasmine to have written A Whole New World.

the world is different and I accept it. I'm READY to like modern music whenever I hear it. I just LOVE great songs and want to hear more of them. It's a dying art. But other arts are emerging.

1) The artist writing the song these days is about money and nothing more. Information is out there about artists who performed some of the greatest songs out there but died broke because the didn't own the songs.... because they didnwrite the songs. So artists simply won't go into (or stay in) the business these days if they can't get in on the writing and at least split it on most songs. I've been in the room for this conversation in Nashville several times. There's a bunch of good looking kids in Nashville right now who can sing. They are no longer looking for record deals. They're looking for oub deals, and if they happen to get ti sing their own songs that'll be fine too.

2) We could have had more of an intelligent conversation right up until you implied that Cobain was some sort of genius... who wrote strong songs. They were simply at the right place at the right time. They are just kids making raw music when other kids were ready to turn the page from the 80s. Some D bag in Seattle implied that 80s music was "selling out" and it caught fire. Nothing more. I like Pearl Jam and several others from grunge. And a few of them had some really solid players and singers. Nirvana was monkeys bannging on things while one of them screamed.... or moaned when he got tired. Or course, Dave Grohl wound up being a talent once he was able to rise above that band. But Nirvana? Strong songs? :vomit: Boys were ready to stop trying to prime for school and jumped on that band wagon so they could jump around in fields not making any sense. I was there. I played festivals where the grunge kids would stand in back with their flannel shirts tied around their camo shorts until a monkey banging song started. Then they rushed to the front and started banging into each other. Once the band started playing a classic or radio rock song, they went back to the back to cross their arms and glare at anyone who dared like the next song. The monkey bangers simply got on the "sellout" bandwagon and (oddly enough) took that wagon straight to the bank. ;)
 
Dua Lipa is being held up as an example of some kind of pop saviour? Yikes.
Dua Lipa, along with Olivia Rodrigo, Billie Eilish, Doja Cat, and Maroon 5, seems to be doing quite well in the pop market right now. Add in Justin Bieber, the Jonas Brothers and a few others and pop seems pretty strong right now.

It's weird to me that it doesn't seem to work for live bands, though.
 
Dua Lipa is being held up as an example of some kind of pop saviour? Yikes.

I didn't think the original question was "pop savior" or whether modern music is good generally. That's been done to death. My take on the original question was how contemporary top 40 went over in our cover bands.
 
I didn't think the original question was "pop savior" or whether modern music is good generally. That's been done to death. My take on the original question was how contemporary top 40 went over in our cover bands.
I wasn’t referring to the original question. I keep seeing references to Dua Lipa as if she’s something particularly special. I’m not hearing it.
 
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"Don't Start Now" isn't a jam. It's a well crafted pop hit that CAN be played live with real musicians. Notice the bass player switch between bass guitar and key bass.
So, that song.... in some ways it's a throwback to the disco era. There's a whole vocal section and a whole string section on that stage. Outside of the rhythm section, which is driving the song, it's keys, keys and more keys with a guitar doing a little disco-style dinky-dink-dink part throughout.

I think you could do a facsimile of that with a live band, but it would be difficult to pull it off well without the proper instrumentation. You'd need a keyboard wizard or two to do all the keys and synth parts along with the string section parts. One of those keyboard wizards is hard to find, at least in my experience, let alone more than one. They want money.

That is the thing about songs like this- so much of the song's strength is in the arrangement. That's ok with me, but it can make a song hard to duplicate well.

I think it could be done, but I do think that it's yet another example of where modern production styles get in the way of fully achieving a cover. Of course, there are many older songs that also don't get played well by local bands because crucial parts go missing. I'm still thinking this is perhaps a big piece of why modern songs don't go over as well when played live.
 
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The OP's original post asked if anyone was playing current top 40. A lot of the songs mentioned here are either top 40 hits from the last 10 years or songs from 2021 that are not top 40. It seems no one is really playing current 2021 top 40 except for Dua Lipa. Which is understandable.
I’ve played Leave the Door Open on a few gigs recently. Anyone who says pop is lazy or poorly written will have to make an exception on this one.
 
I’ve played Leave the Door Open on a few gigs recently. Anyone who says pop is lazy or poorly written will have to make an exception on this one.


Now this is getting interesting.

This is definitely MUCH better than most Bruno Mars. Again, "dancing with another man" and "grenade" are awful. Just awful.

This song has four credited writers, so it's hard to say how much influence Bruno had on the parts that change key, have some interesting chord changes etc. But my original point was, it doesn't matter who wrote it. Bruno Mars is an incredible entertainer and all around artist. I just don't think he's a very good songwriter.

All that said, this song is just okay. It has a lot going for it especially for chart pop. For one thing it, HEAVEN FORBID pokes its head outside of the key which you almost never hear these days. However, it's also kind of just a generic genre piece. A 70s rnb throwback. A pale imitation of earth wind and fire. For that matter, while this song IS a cut above the modern top 40 landscape, the actual tune, the melody itself, it's still just kind of a string of bland generic lines. It is hard to explain in a forum but a great melody should sound like all one cohesive whole to the exclusion of all other melodies.
"Hello hello'' I don't know why" from hello goodbye. See how those are related? Then "say goodbye" is that but in reverse? "You say I don't know" is hello hello but slowed down. There are many other developments in that song but whether your conscious mind knows it or not, your brain is being utterly delighted and seduced by the sheer craft.

This song is nice but it's ultimately still a sort of "improvised melody" kind of singing over changes and finding little bits patchwork of stuff that "works."

Earth wind and fire SOUND like this, but write much finer songs.

BTW I am a very impassioned composition guy and anyone who sees any value in what I'm saying, I'd be happy to go into greater detail in real time. I can absolutely back up what I'm claiming and I'm always looking for converts lol.
 
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Now this is getting interesting.

This is definitely MUCH better than most Bruno Mars. Again, "dancing with another man" and "grenade" are awful. Just awful.

This song has four credited writers, so it's hard to say how much influence Bruno had on the parts that change key, have some interesting chord changes etc. But my original point was, it doesn't matter who wrote it. Bruno Mars is an incredible entertainer and all around artist. I just don't think he's a very good songwriter.

All that said, this song is just okay. It has a lot going for it especially for chart pop. For one thing it, HEAVEN FORBID pokes its head outside of the key which you almost never hear these days. However, it's also kind of just a generic genre piece. A 70s rnb throwback. A pale imitation of earth wind and fire. For that matter, while this song IS a cut above the modern top 40 landscape, the actual tune, the melody itself, it's still just kind of a string of bland generic lines. It is hard to explain in a forum but a great melody should sound like all one cohesive whole to the exclusion of all other melodies.
"Hello hello'' I don't know why" from hello goodbye. See how those are related? Then "say goodbye" is that but in reverse? "You say I don't know" is hello hello but slowed down. There are many other developments in that song but whether your conscious mind knows it or not, your brain is being utterly delighted and seduced by the sheer craft.

This song is nice but it's ultimately still a sort of "improvised melody" kind of singing over changes and finding little bits patchwork of stuff that "works."

Earth wind and fire SOUND like this, but write much finer songs.

BTW I am a very impassioned composition guy and anyone who sees any value in what I'm saying, I'd be happy to go into greater detail in real time. I can absolutely back up what I'm claiming and I'm always looking for converts lol.

Agree. I think there is some fantastic music being written today. Most of it I don't see in the top 40. It's funny, I hear a lot of artists and commentators these days jawing on and on about a song's "hook," but what strikes me is how little most of the music THESE SAME PEOPLE create actually HAS a true "hook." That's what I was getting at in an earlier post about Dua Lipa - perfectly adequate dance floor tune, but there's nothing memorable about it. No one will ever care.

Sometimes I note the difference within the work of a single artist, even one I'm really into. Cold War Kids come to mind - I really got into them big time about the time I started playing bass when a drummer introduced me to them. They were my absolutely favorite band around 2010 and for a few years after. But they started out with this...

(I named my band Six Cowards from a moment in that video, btw...)

... and as they got bigger, wound up putting out this...


...Which is a perfectly *OK* song. But it's just not memorable or interesting. Yet it has almost four times as many Youtube views.

I'm worried something similar is happening with my more recent favorite artist, Samantha Fish. Back in 2018 she released this:


Where the song (and the video) was dripping with emotion and atmosphere in multiple layers.

Her most recent music video is this one:


Which, to my ear, is an OK but, again, forgettable country-pop song.
 
Now this is getting interesting.

This is definitely MUCH better than most Bruno Mars. Again, "dancing with another man" and "grenade" are awful. Just awful.

This song has four credited writers, so it's hard to say how much influence Bruno had on the parts that change key, have some interesting chord changes etc. But my original point was, it doesn't matter who wrote it. Bruno Mars is an incredible entertainer and all around artist. I just don't think he's a very good songwriter.

All that said, this song is just okay. It has a lot going for it especially for chart pop. For one thing it, HEAVEN FORBID pokes its head outside of the key which you almost never hear these days. However, it's also kind of just a generic genre piece. A 70s rnb throwback. A pale imitation of earth wind and fire. For that matter, while this song IS a cut above the modern top 40 landscape, the actual tune, the melody itself, it's still just kind of a string of bland generic lines. It is hard to explain in a forum but a great melody should sound like all one cohesive whole to the exclusion of all other melodies.
"Hello hello'' I don't know why" from hello goodbye. See how those are related? Then "say goodbye" is that but in reverse? "You say I don't know" is hello hello but slowed down. There are many other developments in that song but whether your conscious mind knows it or not, your brain is being utterly delighted and seduced by the sheer craft.

This song is nice but it's ultimately still a sort of "improvised melody" kind of singing over changes and finding little bits patchwork of stuff that "works."

Earth wind and fire SOUND like this, but write much finer songs.

BTW I am a very impassioned composition guy and anyone who sees any value in what I'm saying, I'd be happy to go into greater detail in real time. I can absolutely back up what I'm claiming and I'm always looking for converts lol.

Agreed. This one isn’t bad or poorly written, but there isn’t one shred of originality in it, and I’m not sure if I’m supposed to take it seriously. It almost sounds like a parody of 70s R&B. Maybe that’s the point? I don’t know.

Bruno’s material in general is just…ok to me. If he’d been popular in the 80s or 90s, I don’t think he’d be as big of a deal.
 
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Agreed. This one isn’t bad or poorly written, but there isn’t one shred of originality in it, and I’m not sure if I’m supposed to take it seriously. It almost sounds like a parody of 70s R&B. Maybe that’s the point? I don’t know.

Bruno’s material in general is just…ok to me. If he’d been popular in the 80s or 90s, I don’t think he’d be as big of a deal.
That song is also a throwback. But you can't have it both ways. The person you responded to is lamenting that nothing sounds like the old stuff, and when presented with something that sounds like the old stuff, he doesn't care for that either.

This was the point I was trying to make earlier, that no matter how we slice it, our preferences are colored by the things we grew up with. When I said that, I used the example of the Beatles. Oh, how my parents hated the Beatles. But they loved the music of their era. When I look at standards charts from their day I see sophisticated chord changes and excellent writing. People who grew up in my era point to the Beatles for examples of sophisticated writing. And so it goes. We're no different from our parents but we sure like to think we are.
 
That song is also a throwback. But you can't have it both ways. The person you responded to is lamenting that nothing sounds like the old stuff, and when presented with something that sounds like the old stuff, he doesn't care for that either.

This was the point I was trying to make earlier, that no matter how we slice it, our preferences are colored by the things we grew up with. When I said that, I used the example of the Beatles. Oh, how my parents hated the Beatles. But they loved the music of their era. When I look at standards charts from their day I see sophisticated chord changes and excellent writing. People who grew up in my era point to the Beatles for examples of sophisticated writing. And so it goes. We're no different from our parents but we sure like to think we are.
With all due kindness, this is poorly argued.

1. I did not say I wanted stuff to sound like old music. That's a strawman.i went out of my way to make the distinction between the fundamentals of fine writing and "style" or genre. I don't like throwback music as a rule. "This kiss" from the 90s has more in common with the Beatles than wilco or apples in stereo. The latter bands SOUND like the Beatles but don't write well. This kiss is a really great composition, and the Beatles had really great compositions. I hope that is now cleared up.

2. The flaws in your "parents" argument.
-most people are not musicians and their taste are arbitrary and generational, so parents who rejected the Beatles may just be wrong and have bad taste, and don't have any coherent reason for defending the music of their era.
-people like Leonard Bernstein championed the Beatles publicly. He was older than your parents. His opinion is informed because he has expertise and knows what the hell he's talking about.
-I am 35 so this is not music from "my era." I understand we all have biases, and I am by no means immune to them. I can however trust myself at least a little to evaluate new music and old music on its merits and argue intelligently about what objective merits may or may not be there.
-my taste ranges from 17th, 18th, and 18th century music, Brazilian music, Bulgarian music, 1980s Japanese pop, 1960s French pop, 1930s-1950s Broadway and film music, early 1990s Japanese viseo game music, 1960s pop, avant-garde gard bedroom pop, and PLENTY of modern stuff, just happens not to be in the charts for the most part.

And I don't need crazy snobby jazz or anything. Just a good tune. "It's my party" is a good tune. "An Ayrshire serenade" by Anthony hedges, a British light composer from the mid 20th century, is a good tune. "Pretty women" from Sweeney Todd is a good tune. The theme from the last American hero is a good tune. "This Christmas" from 1970 is a good tune."oops I did it again" is a good tune.

This is not me being a boomer and grumbling about music from my era.im talking about something VERY specific here. Can anyone back me up?
 
With all due kindness, this is poorly argued.

1. I did not say I wanted stuff to sound like old music. That's a strawman.i went out of my way to make the distinction between the fundamentals of fine writing and "style" or genre. I don't like throwback music as a rule. "This kiss" from the 90s has more in common with the Beatles than wilco or apples in stereo. The latter bands SOUND like the Beatles but don't write well. This kiss is a really great composition, and the Beatles had really great compositions. I hope that is now cleared up.

2. The flaws in your "parents" argument.
-most people are not musicians and their taste are arbitrary and generational, so parents who rejected the Beatles may just be wrong and have bad taste, and don't have any coherent reason for defending the music of their era.
-people like Leonard Bernstein championed the Beatles publicly. He was older than your parents. His opinion is informed because he has expertise and knows what the hell he's talking about.
-I am 35 so this is not music from "my era." I understand we all have biases, and I am by no means immune to them. I can however trust myself at least a little to evaluate new music and old music on its merits and argue intelligently about what objective merits may or may not be there.
-my taste ranges from 17th, 18th, and 18th century music, Brazilian music, Bulgarian music, 1980s Japanese pop, 1960s French pop, 1930s-1950s Broadway and film music, early 1990s Japanese viseo game music, 1960s pop, avant-garde gard bedroom pop, and PLENTY of modern stuff, just happens not to be in the charts for the most part.

And I don't need crazy snobby jazz or anything. Just a good tune. "It's my party" is a good tune. "An Ayrshire serenade" by Anthony hedges, a British light composer from the mid 20th century, is a good tune. "Pretty women" from Sweeney Todd is a good tune. The theme from the last American hero is a good tune. "This Christmas" from 1970 is a good tune."oops I did it again" is a good tune.

This is not me being a boomer and grumbling about music from my era.im talking about something VERY specific here. Can anyone back me up?

I think this is a matter that comes up in a lot of old-vs-new music and good-vs-bad music threads, which is whether there's any such thing as "objectivity" in assessing music.

What's objective is measurable and the perspective of the person evaluating doesn't matter. For example, a song is more difficult to play, faster, uses a greater variety of chords or tonalities, etc.

What's subjective is a matter of personal perspective (which @LBS-bass was emphasizing). It isn't necessarily untrue, but its truth or falsehood can only be perceived from a person's individual point of view.

The thing is, that a song can be good or bad (subjectively) regardless of its objective characteristics. In an earlier post, I contrasted Cold War Kids' "Hang Me Up to Dry" with their more recent "Love is Mystical." OBjectively, "Hang Me Up to Dry" is a very simple song. There's not a whole lot there. You could definitely make a case that "Love is Mystical" is objectively a more sophisticated piece.

And yet.

SUBjectively, I (and I think most listeners) can hear that "Hang Me Up to Dry" is a better song. In all its simplicity, it's more vivid, more compelling, more lively, more memorable. You can pour all kinds of sophisticated voodoo into a song and still come out with something dull and rote and uninteresting. There are lots of prog bands who have made pieces with enough sophisticated chord changes and key changes and time changes to spin your head, but none of them are as good as Yes' "Roundabout."

I think the other thing about @LBS-bass ' point is what I call the "classic dynamic." I could sit down and write a song about women's empowerment that, by any objective standard, is just as "good" a song as Aretha's "Respect." But no matter how good it is, it will never outweigh "Respect" as a great song, simply because "Respect" is the original, the classic, the one that already shaped the culture. No matter how good mine is, it will still just be an imitation of what Aretha already did, and people will never respond to it the way they respond to hers. No playwright in the English language, no matter how good, will ever be better than Shakespeare, simply because Shakespeare already exists and already has had the influence he has had.

The Dua Lipa song (I have already forgotten the title) is a pretty good song, but I think she's right, it's a deliberate evocation of an earlier era of classics. Objectively it may be quite good, but there's nothing distinctive about it, subjectively, to make it memorable and a new classic.
 
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What's objective is measurable and the perspective of the person evaluating doesn't matter. For example, a song is more difficult to play, faster, uses a greater variety of chords or tonalities, etc.

What's subjective is a matter of personal perspective (which @LBS-bass was emphasizing). It isn't necessarily untrue, but its truth or falsehood can only be perceived from a person's individual point of view.

It's an interesting conversation. I'm bowing out of it because I think it's straying somewhat far afield from the OPs question, even though in answering that question we tend to bring up reasons, and whether this music resonates with the people who see live music these days is a legitimate debate. But I think the proof is in the pudding. Do people who do play it get a response from it? Or are people just not willing to play it live for other reasons?

Seems like a lot of people think audiences only want to hear older stuff, but maybe that's a self-fulfilling prophecy since bands want to play it safe and play what they think audiences want.
 
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It's an interesting conversation. I'm bowing out of it because I think it's straying somewhat far afield from the OPs question, even though in answering that question we tend to bring up reasons, and whether this music resonates with the people who see live music these days is a legitimate debate. But I think the proof is in the pudding. Do people who do play it get a response from it? Or are people just not willing to play it live for other reasons?

Seems like a lot of people think audiences only want to hear older stuff, but maybe that's a self-fulfilling prophecy since bands want to play it safe and play what they think audiences want.
This thread has been enlightening, and what I now wonder is: if people want to hear music they know, and it's old music because they don't listen to new music, how long can this last? Will bar bands in 2050 still be playing Wagon Wheel, Sweet Home Alabama and Brown Eyed Girl?
 
I think this is a matter that comes up in a lot of old-vs-new music and good-vs-bad music threads, which is whether there's any such thing as "objectivity" in assessing music.

What's objective is measurable and the perspective of the person evaluating doesn't matter. For example, a song is more difficult to play, faster, uses a greater variety of chords or tonalities, etc.

What's subjective is a matter of personal perspective (which @LBS-bass was emphasizing). It isn't necessarily untrue, but its truth or falsehood can only be perceived from a person's individual point of view.

The thing is, that a song can be good or bad (subjectively) regardless of its objective characteristics. In an earlier post, I contrasted Cold War Kids' "Hang Me Up to Dry" with their more recent "Love is Mystical." OBjectively, "Hang Me Up to Dry" is a very simple song. There's not a whole lot there. You could definitely make a case that "Love is Mystical" is objectively a more sophisticated piece.

And yet.

SUBjectively, I (and I think most listeners) can hear that "Hang Me Up to Dry" is a better song. In all its simplicity, it's more vivid, more compelling, more lively, more memorable. You can pour all kinds of sophisticated voodoo into a song and still come out with something dull and rote and uninteresting. There are lots of prog bands who have made pieces with enough sophisticated chord changes and key changes and time changes to spin your head, but none of them are as good as Yes' "Roundabout."

I think the other thing about @LBS-bass ' point is what I call the "classic dynamic." I could sit down and write a song about women's empowerment that, by any objective standard, is just as "good" a song as Aretha's "Respect." But no matter how good it is, it will never outweigh "Respect" as a great song, simply because "Respect" is the original, the classic, the one that already shaped the culture. No matter how good mine is, it will still just be an imitation of what Aretha already did, and people will never respond to it the way they respond to hers. No playwright in the English language, no matter how good, will ever be better than Shakespeare, simply because Shakespeare already exists and already has had the influence he has had.

The Dua Lipa song (I have already forgotten the title) is a pretty good song, but I think she's right, it's a deliberate evocation of an earlier era of classics. Objectively it may be quite good, but there's nothing distinctive about it, subjectively, to make it memorable and a new classic.
I appreciate the response, but again, I have to keep stopping to correct the strawmanning. I NEVER said something needs to be sophisticated to be good. Rather, I never said something has to be COMPLEX to be good. Sophistication, depending on your usage, can either mean "complex" or it can mean "intricate." I do think any fine piece of music, even simple three chord songs, have a kind of intricacy. A kind of elegance.

"they say that there's a sacred chord." Two ideas. "they say"=A "sacred chords"=B
line 1: A A B
-asymmetry in phrase structure
line 1.5: A A B
Repeat. Creates familiarity. The listener is now highly confident they know what comes next.
line 2: A A A A C
-fragmentation of the phrase. Creating a big SKEW with the multiple A's in a row. The listener has suddenly been driven off a cliff. They are rescued by "doooo ya" which is a "C idea(technically C is not "new." It's the REVERSE of A + a note. instead of "they say," it's "say they"+"ya")
-this is the first "cold water in the face." The listener was lulled into a false sense of security by a repeating phrase. They are now alerted to whatever might come next, defenses up, but fatally curious.
Line 3: A A A A B B
Notice it's ANOTHER string of 4 "a's". "it goes+like this+the fourth+the fifth+" This is where the first major payoff happens. You both have a high degree of confidence that you're going to get another "dooo ya" right here. Further, you THINK that's what you want. But what a master songwriter does is, have his WAY with you. You are putty in the writer's hands. Instead of another "doo ya." You get a DOUBLE B "minor falls, the major lifts," which is the "sacred chord" idea. Notice this balances the equation. We missed out on "sacred chord" when we were introduced to "dooo ya." Now we have an "A heavy" problem that needs to be balanced out. He both reintroduces B and doubles it.
Line 4:A A A A C
-this is a development of line 2 but using other composition techniques that are too technical to get into here. But this is of course the "landing" of the phrase. "leu-jia" is the payoff of "do-ya" finally gratifying you. It took waht you thought you wanted and gave you something MUCH better. Surprising, yet inevitable. "I can't believe that just happened, but it couldn't have happened any other way." THAT is songwriting.
Refrain: C C C D
again technically this is more detailed. the C's are "primaed" and the D is more of a mutated C, but again for simplicity's sake, he brings it home with a lot of "doo yas" restful, relatively predictable. This is the cigarette after the coitus. This is the "anti-climax." It's one of the many choices you have in terms of form when you get outside of "8 bar verse. 8 bar prechorus. 8 bar chorus. 8 bar post chorus."

But is "halleleujia" COMPLEX? no. However, depending on your usage, it is highly sophisticated, but not with the sort of "fancy/complex" baggage that word usually carries. By sophisticated, I mean it is a finely tuned little miracle of clockwork. Not an ounce of fat. Every note, and I mean EVERY note, has its purpose to support and elevate all other notes. Change one thing, the whole song falls apart. This is what I mean when I say FINE writing. And this level of craft doesn't just HAPPEN.

So please. Everyone. Don't strawman what I'm trying to say. The modern singer songwriter, for the MOST part, with some exceptions, doesn't write. they do what I call "channeling." They play a loop of chords and "sing stuff" over the chords. They kind of feel around in the dark and use their instincts and intuition to sort of cobble together these songs that are just "a loop of chords with stuff being sung over the top." We're all musicians here. I CANT be the only one who sees this. This, by the way is NOT subjective. Someone may subjectively dislike Halleleujia for a number of reasons. Might not like the performance or the genre, it might just not be applicable to their truth, just doesn't speak to them, but its sheer brilliance as a song is NOT subjective. It's provable and demonstrable.

If you tried this kind of analysis on "hello" by Adele(which I have for my songwriting students), you get like, basically a random number generator. White noise. Some strong ideas here and there but they are abandoned for other random, unrelated ideas and the song crumbles under its own weight. I know I know it was a huge hit.

As you pointed out, being a successful pop songwriter is not just the song. It's a combination of fashion, personality, luck, technology, culture, timing, and of course the X factor. Personally, *I* listen to songs because I love songs. The modern pop world is fine for what it is. it serves its function. But when was the last time a popular song BROKE your heart. Made you as an adult CRY or explode with joy? And no it doesn't have to be some epic art song. It's my Party makes me cry. The theme to Jurassic Park makes me cry. Embarrassing as it is, the theme to Tiny Toon Adventures, composed by Bruce Broughton, moved me to tears once because I was sitting with it analyzing it and it really is just a masterwork in terms of melodic construction. I am moved by great tunes, wherever they may be, whenever they may be from. So yes. "the perfect pop song" has probably been recorded and fallen into obscurity hundreds of times in the last 20 years. I'm talking to you all as a song lover, NOT someone who's trying to say "modern pop sucks and old music was better" so can we please drop that?

Thanks everyone for following me down this crazy 2 day tangent.