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Is anyone playing current Top 40?

^ Disagree with all of that. Folks like @two fingers and @droo46 have it right on the money. The writing isn’t any worse now. The performances are certainly not by less impressive. My kids keep me appraised of what to listen to. They’re right 50% of the time. Everything you said is just plain wrong. There are extremely prescient artists out there making well written pop music. Just because all you know of Bruno Mars is his one radio hit, doesn’t mean you can make an assessment of his creative output. And I can tell you, “The Business” as simple as it is, has been stuck in my head a lot more in the past year than PYT has in the past decade. And I love that song. I’m sick of people denying that modern pop music has its own merits. That’s just snobbish and obtuse.
 
^ Disagree with all of that. Folks like @two fingers and @droo46 have it right on the money. The writing isn’t any worse now. The performances are certainly not by less impressive. My kids keep me appraised of what to listen to. They’re right 50% of the time. Everything you said is just plain wrong. There are extremely prescient artists out there making well written pop music. Just because all you know of Bruno Mars is his one radio hit, doesn’t mean you can make an assessment of his creative output. And I can tell you, “The Business” as simple as it is, has been stuck in my head a lot more in the past year than PYT has in the past decade. And I love that song. I’m sick of people denying that modern pop music has its own merits. That’s just snobbish and obtuse.

ughhh. I defer to the rest of the thread on who has a point here. "The business" is like...whatever. It's not going to hurt anyone with its badness, but it's just the most generic, bland, unoriginal dance song. there are MILLIONS of songs that sound exactly like it. NOTHING sounds like Lithium. NOTHING sounds like Beautiful Stranger. NOTHING sounds like Killing me Softly. NOTHING sounds like Blackbird. NOTHING sounds like God Only Knows. NOTHING sounds like She Blinded Me with Science. NOTHING sounds like It's My Party.

In their very construction, to their very core, they are novelties. I am happy to go into detail. I'm happy to VIDEO chat with you and demonstrate what I mean. The difference between all those songs and "the business" is, "the business" is a standard vii-V-IV progression looped, with a string of unrelated and extremely bland phrases, all accenting in predictable places, totally safe, totally orthodox, no creativity. Most importantly, it's just undeveloped. The writing of modern popular music is mostly a "feel" thing and not a "craft" thing. I believe you need both. Feel can grab you by the collar. Craft HOLDS your collar and WON'T LET GO. A masterful song has its way with you from start to finish. it MAN-HANDLES you. Just when you want to turn the dial, it says "I'm not done with you yet." This can only be achieved with craft, in my opinion.
 
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Why should anything sound like something that was already done? The fundamental tools available to create and write music are different today, and that isn’t by definition a bad thing. Tools are only as good as the people who use them but it’s possible to create good music without relying on yesterday’s technology.
 
Why should anything sound like something that was already done? The fundamental tools available to create and write music are different today, and that isn’t by definition a bad thing. Tools are only as good as the people who use them but it’s possible to create good music without relying on yesterday’s technology.
huh? I'm not sure what this is addressing. I'm specifically advocating for doing things that have not already been done. The crisis in the modern songwriter is that songs sound VERY similar to one another because they're all step-wise, basically improvised nothing melodies over a loop of chords, and then produced and performed very well. You're right that new technology allows for new tools and new avenues of creativity. It is the very definition of irony that the SONGWRITING today, I don't mean production I mean songwriting, is, on average, aggressively UNcreative. The recent example invoked, "the business," It's about as uncreative, bland, uninspired, as it gets. I say again, the album "Life" by KNOWER from 2016, that uses modern production to enhance creativity, and the core tunes, the core SONGS, are brilliant one-of-a-kind mini masterpieces. I invoke that because it's newish, albeit not a top 40 thing. Still pretty popular.
 
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ughhh. I defer to the rest of the thread on who has a point here. "The business" is like...whatever. It's not going to hurt anyone with its badness, but it's just the most generic, bland, unoriginal dance song. there are MILLIONS of songs that sound exactly like it. NOTHING sounds like Lithium. NOTHING sounds like Beautiful Stranger. NOTHING sounds like Killing me Softly. NOTHING sounds like Blackbird. NOTHING sounds like God Only Knows. NOTHING sounds like She Blinded Me with Science. NOTHING sounds like It's My Party.

In their very construction, to their very core, they are novelties. I am happy to go into detail. I'm happy to VIDEO chat with you and demonstrate what I mean. The difference between all those songs and "the business" is, "the business" is a standard vii-V-IV progression looped, with a string of unrelated and extremely bland phrases, all accenting in predictable places, totally safe, totally orthodox, no creativity. Most importantly, it's just undeveloped. The writing of modern popular music is mostly a "feel" thing and not a "craft" thing. I believe you need both. Feel can grab you by the collar. Craft HOLDS your collar and WON'T LET GO. A masterful song has its way with you from start to finish. it MAN-HANDLES you. Just when you want to turn the dial, it says "I'm not done with you yet." This can only be achieved with craft, in my opinion.

You're both right and wrong.

I drive my friends nuts blathering on about a "well-crafted song". I LOVE a song with some musical depth. Trite and predictable songs drive me insane.

However....

That does NOT mean that current hits aren't relevant. It does NOT mean they aren't well written. They are written in the current style. They are adored by millions. And all of those millions can't be dumber than you. You are a cocky somebody if you think everyone who likes current pop hits is somehow "less than" you. :D

A hit is a hit. Some of the smash hits of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s were trite and repetitive. But they're still hits! So they resonated with millions! (Let's talk about Brown Eyed Girl, Old Time Rock n Roll, and countless others.) If you're able to touch millions with your art (be it a painting of apples, a three-chord song, a ridiculous comedy bit, etc.) you're still relevant. If you resonate with the masses, you have a gift. Period.

Some of the Rolling Stones' songs are unbelievably simple and trite. Some of the Beatles' hits are just stupid simple little ditties. Some of the most famous paintings on Earth are Jackson Pollock flinging paint randomly at a canvas. Eddie Murphy launched his career talking about the Honeymooners having.... sex with each other.

If it resonates with the masses, it's relevant. Period. End of story. It doesn't have to be complex or deep or even original.

That said, there are still some musically and lyrically deep songs out there today. My only problem is that they aren't exactly bar appropriate for the most part.
 
You're both right and wrong.

I drive my friends nuts blathering on about a "well-crafted song". I LOVE a song with some musical depth. Trite and predictable songs drive me insane.

However....

That does NOT mean that current hits aren't relevant. It does NOT mean they aren't well written. They are written in the current style. They are adored by millions. And all of those millions can't be dumber than you. You are a cocky somebody if you think everyone who likes current pop hits is somehow "less than" you. :D

A hit is a hit. Some of the smash hits of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s were trite and repetitive. But they're still hits! So they resonated with millions! (Let's talk about Brown Eyed Girl, Old Time Rock n Roll, and countless others.) If you're able to touch millions with your art (be it a painting of apples, a three-chord song, a ridiculous comedy bit, etc.) you're still relevant. If you resonate with the masses, you have a gift. Period.

Some of the Rolling Stones' songs are unbelievably simple and trite. Some of the Beatles' hits are just stupid simple little ditties. Some of the most famous paintings on Earth are Jackson Pollock flinging paint randomly at a canvas. Eddie Murphy launched his career talking about the Honeymooners having.... sex with each other.

If it resonates with the masses, it's relevant. Period. End of story. It doesn't have to be complex or deep or even original.

That said, there are still some musically and lyrically deep songs out there today. My only problem is that they aren't exactly bar appropriate for the most part.


I agree with some of this and disagree with some.

A song can be as well-crafted as a fine mahogany desk but, if it doesn't have that x factor, if it doesn't, as you say, speak to a population of people, it's a well-crafted song that will just remain in obscurity forever. How many incredible songs and albums exist in the heaps and heaps of musical waste produced every day.

I am NOT saying the modern music listener or consumer is stupid. I have to correct you there. Culture is just an ever-evolving, mutating, growing thing. Pop music, ever since the Rhythm and Blues bands caused the grand migration of the youth market from the swing era, it's been culture by young people, for young people.
Rock and Roll is just young people playing electric guitars in rhythm and blues bands and singing obliquely about sex. This was a perfect storm of technology(electric guitar, mass media), the clashing of youth culture with the anti-sex, conservative older generation, and post war economic growth where teenagers could spend pocket money on 45s. This is all happening in a constitutionally free, but socially conservative society. This created a powder keg of fiendish fervor for pop music. A young attractive person singing obliquely about sex to fast rhythm and blues with these wild technological things called electric guitars. Can you imagine how EXCITING that must have been? My GOD. As it happens, most of that early boogie woogie rock and roll is pretty lousy from a writing standpoint, but as you say, a hit was a hit.

Culture moved on, experimented more. The Beach Boys cross-germinated with extremely popular music, vocal jazz from yester-year, and bach, making a super broad audience more open to sophisticated music in pop.

I could go on and on. Kurt Cobain single-handedly destroyed the hair metal scene. They were all caught with their leopard skinned pants down overnight. But just like the beatles, in my opinion, Nirvana spearheaded the movement because the songs were THAT strong. There were other contemporaneous grunge bands that could have been the golden idol of that movement, but I believe Kurt was because Kurt had the SONGS. Just like any british beat group could have caused a Mania. The Beatles did because they had Yesterday.

getting kind of in the weeds here. My point is, the musical landscape today isn't about the song. It's kind a fashion thing, a lifestyle brand, a celebrity worship thing, an "american idol" thing like, fame ITSELF is being sold rather than the actual art.

I know I sound like a grump. I'm really not. I'm totally fine with modern music and I understand its appeal. But I will not relent in saying the writing is generally very bad, and the reason for that is, 18-25 year old attractive kids tend not to be master songwriters. When a kid that young has that much songwriting ability it's an extremely magical thing. It's only happened a few times in history. The rest of the time, back in the 1940s all the way through the late 1990s, young attractive people did the singing, and good songwriters did the writing.

That stopped because culture decided it's VERY important that whomever is singing the song wrote it themselves. Some kind of fetish with "authenticity" or something. To me it's like expecting the woman who voiced the singing voice of Jasmine to have written A Whole New World.

the world is different and I accept it. I'm READY to like modern music whenever I hear it. I just LOVE great songs and want to hear more of them. It's a dying art. But other arts are emerging.
 
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I didn’t say “The Business” was something masterful, writing wise. I pointed out that it was way catchier to me, than PYT I wonder how many of your masterfully loved songs are also 7-5-4 progressions on a loop. Simplicity isn’t necessarily bad.
 
I didn’t say “The Business” was something masterful, writing wise. I pointed out that it was way catchier to me, than PYT I wonder how many of your masterfully loved songs are also 7-5-4 progressions on a loop. Simplicity isn’t necessarily bad.
sorry I meant vi-V-VI. typo.

It's not JUSt the harmonic simplicity. It's not JUST the bland, generic nature. It's everything all together. "Hello Goodbye" has three or four simple chords but uses them in a novel way with novel timing and novel phrasing. Again, there is NOTHING like hello goodbye. There are a billion songs just like the business and I don't agree that it's catchy. "catchy" and "easy to listen to" aren't the same. I listened to the song and have ZERO recollection of it. because it's so lacking in identity and a strong, novel melodic concept, it just kind of goos together in my mind with the rest of the tripe. So it "goes down smooth." It's "easy to listen to" but it's not "catchy." Catchy is when I hear a song once or twice and I know it. Anyone can MEMORIZE a song and then call it catchy after the fact.

And catchy tunes are a result of strong melodic composition. development. skill. Can a song have all those properties, ie be anatomically catchy and still totally flop? sure! There's so much more to a pop hit than just the song. Can a total piece of crap song become a huge hit? sure. happens ALL the time. It's a bad song but a good PRODUCT. I don't judge that. it's fine with me. There's just nothing for me as a song lover.
 
Haha, glad you caught that progression fiddle.

look man, I’m your age, and I totally get what you’re saying to some extent. But I just don’t think you’re actively trying enough to see the the worth of this modern pop music.
 
Haha, glad you caught that progression fiddle.

look man, I’m your age, and I totally get what you’re saying to some extent. But I just don’t think you’re actively trying enough to see the the worth of this modern pop music.
I believe I put in a reasonable effort. Once every couple months I put on discoveries on spotify and listen to NPR top songs/top albums. I try to keep an open mind. And I am sometimes pleasantly surprised but more often than not, my hypothesis gets verified over and over and over. But I have not become cynical or pessimistic. Every time I hear something new, I'm ready for it to be great. Even if I think the song is weak, which I almost always do, I try to find something to like in the vocal performance or lyric or production. there is always something to learn or appreciate, but nothing moves my SOUL like a GREAT tune. Modern popular music has a lot to offer but a great tune is really not one of them 95% of the time.
 
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huh? I'm not sure what this is addressing.
It's addressing all those things you were saying nothing sounds like. In caps, so clearly you feel strongly about the fact that nothing today sounds like the Beatles, or the other things that you mentioned. Which, to me, is fine. Nothing should sound like those things, because those are yesterday's sounds. They're great, no one will take that away from them or from you or from me, but it's 2021 and young people are creating new music with the tools available that they would like to hear.

Look, I'm in my 60's. I grew up with all that great music and it's certainly got a place in my heart that is very dear, but I don't think that it needs to be replicated. My parents had Benny Goodman and the other big bands of their day. The music of my day sounded nothing like theirs, and why should it? They didn't understand the music of my day either, but that didn't make the Beatles a lousy band.
 
It's addressing all those things you were saying nothing sounds like. In caps, so clearly you feel strongly about the fact that nothing today sounds like the Beatles, or the other things that you mentioned. Which, to me, is fine. Nothing should sound like those things, because those are yesterday's sounds. They're great, no one will take that away from them or from you or from me, but it's 2021 and young people are creating new music with the tools available that they would like to hear.

Look, I'm in my 60's. I grew up with all that great music and it's certainly got a place in my heart that is very dear, but I don't think that it needs to be replicated. My parents had Benny Goodman and the other big bands of their day. The music of my day sounded nothing like theirs, and why should it? They didn't understand the music of my day either, but that didn't make the Beatles a lousy band.
You're completely missing my point. I do not want anyone to sound "like the beatles." That's a style. A genre. I'm talking about something more low-level than that.

It's like, let's take a screenplay that's a really good, solid screenplay. Let's say Chinatown. Chinatown is amazing, not because it's got a "70s movie" vibe, but because it deals with the elegant escalation of antagonism, story folds, a climax that is a surprising, inevitable, irreversible change that illustrates and reveals something about life. This is the anatomy of a fine story. Me saying that is not saying I want "more movies to be like Chinatown." I want more WELL WRITTEN FILMS. For instance, "Joker" is stylistically like a 70s film, but it's terrible from a writing perspective. Wilco is stylistically a beatles-esque band but their songs are terrible.

So I say again, the principles of musical composition ie just how to organize notes over time with grace and mastery, that transcends era, it transcends style, as long as we're talking about the tonal music system anyway, which I assume we are. Paul McCartney is using the same 12 keys as Bruno Mars, he just KNOWS WHAT HES DOING.
 
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You're completely missing my point. I do not want anyone to sound "like the beatles." That's a style. A genre. I'm talking about something more low-level than that.

It's like, let's take a screenplay that's a really good, solid screenplay. Let's say Chinatown. Chinatown is amazing, not because it's got a "70s movie" vibe, but because it deals with the elegant escalation of antagonism, story folds, a climax that is a surprising, inevitable, irreversible change that illustrates and reveals something about life. This is the anatomy of a fine story. Me saying that is not saying I want "more movies to be like Chinatown." I want more WELL WRITTEN FILMS. For instance, "Joker" is stylistically like a 70s film, but it's terrible from a writing perspective. Wilco is stylistically a beatles-esque band but their songs are terrible.

So I say again, the principles of musical composition ie just how to organize notes over time with grace and mastery, that transcends era, it transcends style, as long as we're talking about the tonal music system anyway, which I assume we are. Paul McCartney is using the same 12 keys as Bruno Mars, he just KNOWS WHAT HES DOING.
OK.
 
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We decided to have a s dedicated set of “Top 40s” tracks. We disperse them across our three sets, if we’re covering a whole night. If we’re on a bill and have a single set, we stick to these newer songs in one set. Here’s what we’ve put together:

The Business- Tiesto
New Light- John Mayer
Beggin- Maneskin
Forget All About You- Foster The People
Leave the Door Open- Silk Sonic
American Boy- Estelle and Kanye
Astronaut in the Ocean- Masked Wolf
Montero- Lil Nas X
Peaches- Bieber
Dance Monkey- tones and I
Shame- Foo Fighters
Levitating- Dua Lipa
Cool set. I like "Peaches"

Not to derail the thread, but since the debacle brought by the Internet, I truly felt that the “top 40” (as in what the mainstream media decided should be what people should consume) was gone…..…
Do you know that Top 40 is (still) based on sales (and now downloads)?

...I say again, the album "Life" by KNOWER from 2016, that uses modern production to enhance creativity, and the core tunes, the core SONGS, are brilliant one-of-a-kind mini masterpieces. I invoke that because it's newish, albeit not a top 40 thing. Still pretty popular.
I've not heard of this band or album. Why aren't they a big hit if they're so great?
 
Seems like some folks here are having trouble distinguishing between art and commerce . Top 40 is the very definition of ' popular ' i.e. a bunch of folks like it / buy it etc . It may or may not also be an " artistic " triumph likely to last well beyond it's time . To say that today's music makers are not capable of creating lasting works of greatness is foolish and nearsighted . Whether they can do so at the same large volume as has happened at times in the past remains to be seen but if I had to hazard a guess I'd say the chances are slim of that happening because the cultural tide is not high right now . ... Kelly
 
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Interesting perspective. I think I see the same thing at the wine bars we play at. It surprises me how "younger" people are so into the 70's rock stuff, and how the dance floor fills up with some of the older stuff I think is overdone. The stuff that bores me to play it, but it brings dancers with their tips. The modern stuff, I mean, "today" top 40's, people sit through it, but jump when you play Wagon Wheel, Sweet Caroline, Pretty woman, AC/DC, Guns & Roses, ZZ Top, etc.

Including Wagon Wheel on that list is interesting, though. Dylan wrote the chorus in 73, but it was never officially released and only known from bootlegs. The verses were written and released only in 2004 and the "hit" version that most people think of is Darius Rucker's from 2013. So that's one that IS pretty much a contemporary hit, or close to it. But the Dylan connection makes people think of it as an old song (and Old Crow Medicine Show did a very rootsy take on it).
 
Oh, and to add to my comment of a bars not wanting stuff too up to date from my cover thing, we really did try the up to date thing, but they just weren't massively well received so we quietly dropped them and kept on with our classics. I am going back just a few years now to the act in question, but the concept is the same. So, examples were I Can't Feel My Face by The Weekend, Cellphone, or whatever it was called by Drake, Blue Jeans by Lana Del Rey, although that is probably on the slightly older list. The ones that hit though were Bruno Mars songs although we didn't get round to trying anything by Adele or Ed Sheeran. Oh, Call Me Maybe was a good one for us. And we got on the Wagon Wheel train when we realised that was being requested more than any other song. We came across some great songs but concluded people just didn't know them so they never really got the traction we thought they would have got. If The World Was Ending could be a really good example of this. And Four Five Seconds. But no. Play a cover set and you need to play what the vast majority of the audience knows. For the most part, people who go see cover bands don't know the new stuff. Although I did most cold pitches in person, when I did work the phones, my pitch there would be to tell whoever it was I was talking to look around their bar now and single out one person to focus on. You got someone? Yep. OK. That person knows 95 per cent of our set. You just wouldn't be able to pull that trick off with a set containing a load of up to date chart hits. And yes, my two bob, my thought on this for a long time has been that music is simply consumed differently now compared to how it would have been when a few radio stations and TV shows were listened to by most people, so most people got to hear most of the same songs. The debate about whether or not this is a good thing is an entirely different discussion, but it's telling that even the more up to date songs in most cover sets, or cover song standards, are pre internet, or peter out just around the time the internet really started getting a hold. Case in point. Napster was founded in 1999. The vast majority of songs making it into cover sets are pre 2000, or at least, cover acts certainly don't often venture that deep into the 2000s. I'm going to give 2005 as a negotiable cut off point.
 
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