And I didn’t suggest you don’t think he can; only that the answer isn’t evident either way in that clip. Which I realize is why you posted it.
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Is he swinging?
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
- Start date
Without a riff or a groove, it just sounds like a bunch of movement to me.
“Is he swinging?” is right up there with “Is it really punk?” as one of those totally useless questions.
I agree that Ray Brown is a good place to start, and while it’s tempo and band dependant, Ray Brown plays pretty on top of the beat, not behind, as you claim.
Ron Carter is another example of a bass player who plays on top, but makes it swing like crazy!
So your rules are, with respect, a bit simplistic and not really the *only* way to make it swing.
The title of the video itself is “can electric bass swing?” Doc didn’t think Janek come through and is inquiring if he’s alone on that. I think it’s a valid question. What I do find pointless is arguing the validity of something that hasn’t been defined…it seems folks here and in Janek’s YT comment section have differing concepts of the term.
I loved the clip. No clue if he was swinging or not.
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It's too syncopated to really swing. Fine playing, though.
“Swing” is a narrowly defined term, at least in jazz education, referring to treatment of two eighth notes as three triplets with two of them tied.
In practice, players emphasize or deemphasize that effect according to the feel of the tune. Drummer friends of mine refer to a feel called “in the crack” as a very deemphasized swing feel, for example, where the drummer can play that feel beneath the rest of the band playing straight 8ths, lending a subtle shuffle.
But “swing” definitely means a certain thing.
Maybe I don't get the term "swing", but what he is playing is pretty much what I would expect to be played on a standup bass. If you just listen without watching, it sounds like a perfect standup bass line other than the tone. It would have sounded better on a fretless IMHO.
While I do think that there are perfectly legitimate settings, where electric bass and jazz mix perfectly well, and not just as a stopgap solution for someone who doesn’t have a double bass..
BUT
If we are talking about traditional straight ahead, swinging walking bass, it’s just not gonna get it done.
and that’s not to say that you can’t walk on electric, etc. etc, but if you are in a bebop quartet, that is not intentionally attempting a “modern take,” then it’s always going to fall short.
I think there’s a little more wiggle room in a big band specifically, as the intimate texture of a small combo has different demands than something so large scale. But I think that perhaps an even bigger reason is that double bass in big band was always kind of flawed, and thoughtful electric tone simply does a little bit better of a job without ruining the whole vibe.. contributing to that would also be the fact that even fairly traditional-minded big bands simply sound significantly more modern, almost inescapably.. due to gear/technology, and just the almost exclusively novelty/academic/period-piece nature of big bands that are playing older, music, and styles.. whereas there still exists some thing of a cutting edge of jazz combos, which can reasonably be experienced in something resembling the original setting and intent..
And this gets talked about all the time, but of course, there is a whole rabbit hole of trying to simulate a double bass on electric.. keeping with the same theme of a combo playing in an old style, I still don’t think even a very well done pseudo-standup setup really gets it done, but I think the cut off line of exactly what settings and style “work” with electric becomes a lot more generous and open if you’ve done a really great job of making your instrument and play style sit in a usable place.
Gustav Broman, look him up, just a fantastic job of not only making his electric bass go “thunk,” but in making his play style and vocabulary reflect some of the grammar and idiosyncrasies of good double bass jazz playing. Which is the other part of it… If you’re trying to play old music and you’ve just got to use electric bass, it takes a lot more artistic intention and effort and attention than simply ‘using flats and a foam mute’
here’s a random vid I found of Gustav Broman’s trio
I think an interesting thing to consider, when analyzing the success of a double base proxy is whether WHEN THEY PLAY FAST AND NIMBLE STUFF / SOLOs, does it sound like a good upright player, and not just an electric taking a rip.
BUT
If we are talking about traditional straight ahead, swinging walking bass, it’s just not gonna get it done.
and that’s not to say that you can’t walk on electric, etc. etc, but if you are in a bebop quartet, that is not intentionally attempting a “modern take,” then it’s always going to fall short.
I think there’s a little more wiggle room in a big band specifically, as the intimate texture of a small combo has different demands than something so large scale. But I think that perhaps an even bigger reason is that double bass in big band was always kind of flawed, and thoughtful electric tone simply does a little bit better of a job without ruining the whole vibe.. contributing to that would also be the fact that even fairly traditional-minded big bands simply sound significantly more modern, almost inescapably.. due to gear/technology, and just the almost exclusively novelty/academic/period-piece nature of big bands that are playing older, music, and styles.. whereas there still exists some thing of a cutting edge of jazz combos, which can reasonably be experienced in something resembling the original setting and intent..
And this gets talked about all the time, but of course, there is a whole rabbit hole of trying to simulate a double bass on electric.. keeping with the same theme of a combo playing in an old style, I still don’t think even a very well done pseudo-standup setup really gets it done, but I think the cut off line of exactly what settings and style “work” with electric becomes a lot more generous and open if you’ve done a really great job of making your instrument and play style sit in a usable place.
Gustav Broman, look him up, just a fantastic job of not only making his electric bass go “thunk,” but in making his play style and vocabulary reflect some of the grammar and idiosyncrasies of good double bass jazz playing. Which is the other part of it… If you’re trying to play old music and you’ve just got to use electric bass, it takes a lot more artistic intention and effort and attention than simply ‘using flats and a foam mute’
here’s a random vid I found of Gustav Broman’s trio
I think an interesting thing to consider, when analyzing the success of a double base proxy is whether WHEN THEY PLAY FAST AND NIMBLE STUFF / SOLOs, does it sound like a good upright player, and not just an electric taking a rip.
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I think it’s the opposite, kind of like roadrunner and physics. He has exactly the feel internalized and thus is able to do this intentionally.
call it what you want. The guy is a monster technical player - far far better than me, so I really have no right to comment. But, to my ear, this example of his playing sounds like a practice exercise. It's got the right notes, and is fairly impressive technically. It's also devoid of any feeling or soul. Again - Janek is an insanely gifted player - this is not my favorite youtube snippet I've seen of him.
Dotted notes, people.
It don't mean a thing,if it ain't got that swing.
It don't mean a thing,if it ain't got that swing.
What would you do if the drummer keeps on crashing every bar or even less ? Hard to swing when the cymbal work is not up to far. Great neck exercises though
When the tune swings as this example does, it’s not necessary for every player in the band to play a swing feel. Janek serves the song.
Short answer... yes.
Longer answer...
As others have said, "swing" isn't necessarily "four on the floor" walking with a triplet feel to the eighth notes (or 12/8 "compound quadruple" rather than 4/4 "simple quadruple"). To get a bit more dedactic and pedantic, the AMOUNT of shift from evenly spaced eighth notes in time to the feel of a triplet varies with tempo a great deal. At really fast tempi, the eighth notes are really pretty much even and the "swing" sound is more a matter of inflection, placement of stressed notes, and articulation, than it is any real distortion of the rhythm. As tempis get slower, the triplet feel becomes more and more pronounced, until it really does become fairly arithmetic, as in the Patitucci clip earlier in this thread (which, stylistically, was a "shuffle" feel more than a standard "swing" feel... but yeah, "shuffle" is a subset of "swing,".. but I'll leave that alone.... rambling.. apologies).
Now, as regards to why I would say Janek "swings" in that clip... He's right in the groove the whole time, propels the music forward by leaving space which creates tension/release, everything he plays is solidly placed rhythmically with the feel of the ensemble, and yes, when he plays notes between the four beats, they are placed where they make the most sense rhythmically for the tempo and style they're playing. He definitely swings. That style of open, "broken" jazz/swing playing is one of my favorites, and isn't a new thing at all. My favorite jazz musician of all time, the pianist Bill Evans, and his trios were absolute masters of that "conversational" way of approaching the trio, constantly shifting and interacting, with the bassist (Scott LaFaro in the earlier days prior to Scott's unfortunate death, and Mark Johnson during the last years, especially, although Gary Peacock was another great member of Bill's trios. Honorable mention to Eddie Gomez, although I never personally dug his sound; didn't sit as well in and fill out the trio as much as some of the other guys.. but that's a personal taste thing. He's obviously a great player) playing melodic fragments bouncing off of and spurring on Bill's ideas... and THEN eventually breaking into a driving walking line at times, which felt all the more powerful from all of the openness leading up to it.
As obviously good as the players in the clip are, there were two things that prevented me from REALLY loving it; one is just a stupid personal bias on my part, and the other is more based on musicianship, but also a matter a personal taste.
The "stupid personal bias" part - I can't stand to watch Janek... that whole bass-face, "Too cool for school," "Dig me!" physical clowning around detracts from performances in my eye. I enjoy seeing players having a good time and being "into it," but when it gets over the top, it's kind of like someone telling a joke, then saying, "See what I did there? Aren't I really clever? Pretty good, huh?" Just.... stop. Again, an admitted personal bias of mine. There are plenty of great players who I'd rather just listen to than have to watch.
Musically, the drummer bugged me. The incessant stress of the backbeat on cymbal at times, dropping "bombs" at spots that stop the groove rather than propelling it forward, the overall tone of his set, his heavy touch... more Peter Erskine/Jack DeJohnnette, please, and less Vinnie Colaiuta/Graham Lear. Nothing against the last two guys... great drummers...
Longer answer...
As others have said, "swing" isn't necessarily "four on the floor" walking with a triplet feel to the eighth notes (or 12/8 "compound quadruple" rather than 4/4 "simple quadruple"). To get a bit more dedactic and pedantic, the AMOUNT of shift from evenly spaced eighth notes in time to the feel of a triplet varies with tempo a great deal. At really fast tempi, the eighth notes are really pretty much even and the "swing" sound is more a matter of inflection, placement of stressed notes, and articulation, than it is any real distortion of the rhythm. As tempis get slower, the triplet feel becomes more and more pronounced, until it really does become fairly arithmetic, as in the Patitucci clip earlier in this thread (which, stylistically, was a "shuffle" feel more than a standard "swing" feel... but yeah, "shuffle" is a subset of "swing,".. but I'll leave that alone.... rambling.. apologies).
Now, as regards to why I would say Janek "swings" in that clip... He's right in the groove the whole time, propels the music forward by leaving space which creates tension/release, everything he plays is solidly placed rhythmically with the feel of the ensemble, and yes, when he plays notes between the four beats, they are placed where they make the most sense rhythmically for the tempo and style they're playing. He definitely swings. That style of open, "broken" jazz/swing playing is one of my favorites, and isn't a new thing at all. My favorite jazz musician of all time, the pianist Bill Evans, and his trios were absolute masters of that "conversational" way of approaching the trio, constantly shifting and interacting, with the bassist (Scott LaFaro in the earlier days prior to Scott's unfortunate death, and Mark Johnson during the last years, especially, although Gary Peacock was another great member of Bill's trios. Honorable mention to Eddie Gomez, although I never personally dug his sound; didn't sit as well in and fill out the trio as much as some of the other guys.. but that's a personal taste thing. He's obviously a great player) playing melodic fragments bouncing off of and spurring on Bill's ideas... and THEN eventually breaking into a driving walking line at times, which felt all the more powerful from all of the openness leading up to it.
As obviously good as the players in the clip are, there were two things that prevented me from REALLY loving it; one is just a stupid personal bias on my part, and the other is more based on musicianship, but also a matter a personal taste.
The "stupid personal bias" part - I can't stand to watch Janek... that whole bass-face, "Too cool for school," "Dig me!" physical clowning around detracts from performances in my eye. I enjoy seeing players having a good time and being "into it," but when it gets over the top, it's kind of like someone telling a joke, then saying, "See what I did there? Aren't I really clever? Pretty good, huh?" Just.... stop. Again, an admitted personal bias of mine. There are plenty of great players who I'd rather just listen to than have to watch.
Musically, the drummer bugged me. The incessant stress of the backbeat on cymbal at times, dropping "bombs" at spots that stop the groove rather than propelling it forward, the overall tone of his set, his heavy touch... more Peter Erskine/Jack DeJohnnette, please, and less Vinnie Colaiuta/Graham Lear. Nothing against the last two guys... great drummers...
