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Is it O.K. to praise sound engineers?

#21
Live sound is always a tricky thing. There are a lot of clueless sound guys, clueless performers, horrible sounding venues, and badly set up sound systems out there, plus whatever random issues that come up over the course of a show. There are also time constraints on multi-band shows and the pay is often not very good.

With so many things to go wrong, it's amazing that they ever go right. You SHOULD be giving praise when you have those kind of shows.
 
#28
D.A.R.K. said:
full time touring does not mean 52 weeks a year.
there was a full run down on this on crewspace, i'll try to find it and post it for you. remember, we are talking after taxes as a 1099 independent contractor.
Click to expand...

You realize Walmart employees are also only paid for the weeks they actually work, right?

I'm not saying it's an easy job, but 2400 a week is a good living. There are a whole lot of people all around the world who work very, very hard for much less.
 
#29
projectMalamute said:
You realize Walmart employees are also only paid for the weeks they actually work, right?

I'm not saying it's an easy job, but 2400 a week is a good living. There are a whole lot of people all around the world who work very, very hard for much less.
Click to expand...

once again, its about 14 bucks per hour...before taxes... if you get 2400, which you usually don't. ive been doing it full time for 15 years, lots of folks think its a joy ride(it is at times) but you are out there putting your life on the line. travelling daily can be dangerous, especially internationally these days.
you dont go home at night, play with yer kids or rehearse with yer band. you are on a bus(if lucky) trying to stay healthy.
you get no retirement, no benefits, no health insurance.
and just like wal mart employees, you are only paid for the time you are out (on the job).
beginners are doing it for 400/ week some times.
not to mention zero job security, no one is holding work for you when you get back.
 
#30
While we're on the subject of pay vs labor-

Last show, we were the second band up. After we soundchecked, the opening band shows up and one of them (who turned out to be one of three guitarists) says to the sound guy, "Hey, have some of your guys come around back and help us unload. We have a LOT of equipment." My drummer and I had been standing there talking to the guy, and we both looked at each other shocked. The sound guy didn't say anything, just looks at us. I say "Did he just call you a roadie?" the guitarist says "What's your problem?" "Dude, bring your own roadies, these guys are working their asses off already" and his response was... you guessed it: "**** you." We all laughed at him as he walked away. Upshot was- opening band sounded like crap, and us and the headliner were golden. We also smuggled most of the green room beer into the crew's cooler, so maybe that helped (we don't drink and play).

Maybe the reason some sound engineers have an attitude is because they're sick of arrogant musicians treating them like porters and second-rate citizens.
 
#31
^^ agreed. and it gets worse because of the whole 'if the band sounds great the band gets praised, but if the band sounds bad it's the engineers fault' mentality. And as mentioned already in this thread, there is little an engineer can to make a bad performance sound good.

There are things that can be done, like turning down stage volume and not cupping the vocal mic (looking at you rappers!). Too often though, the band thinks they know better then the engineer with 30 years experience, or mixes 300 shows a year in that room. That is terribly frustrating.

The thing is that in the audio field it's all about reputation. It's a small business and word travels fast. No matter how awful the band is or how little known they are, if they sound terrible and someone sees you mixing them, they equate you with bad sound. Again, so frustrating.

this turned into a rant. sry.
 
#32
D.A.R.K. said:
you get no retirement, no benefits, no health insurance.
and just like wal mart employees, you are only paid for the time you are out (on the job).
beginners are doing it for 400/ week some times.
not to mention zero job security, no one is holding work for you when you get back.
Click to expand...

I totaly agree with you.

Almost all the jobs in snowbuizness are like that : tech , musicians , booking , management , bar service , etc... Some have worst condidtion than others but the tech are not the worst. I've very very often seen musicians been paid less than the tech , in "original" circuit mostly anyways.
Personaly , I do both sound and bass and at the end of the year I do more money as a tech but I don't do more gigs .....
 
#33
There is a big difference between being the artist and working for them.
I only work in the original circuit myself, but if a band takes on crew when they can't afford them, well, that's just bad business decision on their part. I think the down side of being a tech though is that you are spending yer time supporting someone else's dreams, and if the payoff does happen, yer pay ceiling stays what it is... If really lucky you get a retainer(half normal pay) which means you are on call at a drop of the hat, maybe an optional health plan.
I work on a pay scale that changes depending on the artist and their income, but never for an artist that couldn't afford whatever that agreed amount is.
In the end, to put up with this industry, anyone who engineers is a patron of the arts first and foremost,
In the end you share the risks but not the ultimate reward.
 
#34
late to this party and offering a lazily prepared post. here goes.

as a part time professional sound engineer (part time in that 25% of my yearly income is working with a sound company or IC small events) - yes, when you encounter one of the 10% please give him/her praise....and when you encounter one of the 10% on the other side of the equation either a) attempt to work WITH them, or b) don't take another show they work. when you work with the remaining 80% - find a way to have them in the upper 10% when you are working with them. and the figures are supported by research and behavioral science, not directly taken from live sound reproduction but a good generalization across all business. 80% of people in any business/social setting are the everyone's. no real issues.....10% rise to the top....and the remaining 10% give you 90% of your problems.....cut them from contact on sight.

stories to support:

as a hobby musician (maybe 10-15 paid gigs a year) - i've been to a few events engineered by other regional 'talent' and from observing behavior, listening to the product, and being uninspired decided for the few times a year i play it's not worth stepping into THEIR environment.

i took a nice paying opening spot for a private party and had a local sub-par personality, and ignorant to mixing sound professional tell me how it goes. the kid was unprofessional, insulting, arrogant, and disconnected from wanting to be there - before we even stepped on stage to plug in (all di, nothing on stage but 3 bodies, 3 instruments) we played our set, walked off stage, told the kid who never touched a fader while we played that i was disappointed with his attitude first and foremost and would never step on a stage he provided reinforcement for again, no matter how high profile or what the pay.

(by kid i mean younger than my years in the industry, not saying anything too derogatory or overconfident)

you could consider a similar approach - at the end of the day the company we keep isn't worth it.

when the most recent band i worked in found the right sound professional - we hired him as our exclusive engineer. we got first priority, he got all of our bookings, and when his fees increased ours stayed the same. we tipped him. we arranged for him to drink on the band free tab, we fed him as a band member. we even helped him load in/out. a good guy to work WITH

from the engineer side: we LOVE praise. i've had more than one band take a moment to thank me and point me out to the crowd during a show - at FOH and at monitors. seriously, running monitors had a band ask me to stand up, step onto stage, and get a round of applause to me.

foh at a jazz gig with world touring musicians, members of the audience waited in line to thank me for delivering a sound they appreciated. more than 2x the number of people came to me than to the band.

only two examples of something that happens routinely not just to me, but for the 6-8 other guys in the company i work with most often. not a single jerk in our crew. some of the younger guys have 'stubborn' mix preferences, but at the end of the day when we know what the band wants to project, how our gear works, and how the person paying us at the end of the day wants the show to come off....we'll work our ears off getting it better than right. now we have some good resources at our disposal (the elders in our group have decades of touring experience working with A acts).

the B and C acts we work with have a blast, get great equipment, and sound incredible whether they bring their own engineers or use one of our top dogs. the A acts love the gear we provide and tech for them, and 80% of the time deliver a great sound to the audience

at the end of the day, when anyone does something better than expected, they deserve praise and we are morally obligated to acknowledge this....even if it's the high school kid at the grocery store who takes the time to ask you name and comment on the shoes you're wearing and how rad they are.

keep bitching about people not being what you want and you'll get more of what you don't want - that's the law of attraction at work.
 
#36
It's a job. The point isn't praise. The point is respect and understanding enough to let engineers do their job.
There would be more quality engineers if there was a better level of compensation.
The best engineers are invisible, and the crowd is blissfully unaware of technical aspects of the show.
Personally, I can't stand shout outs from bands during a performance, as it pulls everyone's attention away from the art. If you really love me, pay me a living wage. Sharing alcohol with engineers is the funniest way folks have of trying to be nice... It won't help the mix.
 
#40
DaZombieWoof said:
Realize the reality is you may have the holy grail bass rig and if you piss off FOH you can sound like poo. You can also have pretty much the sow's ear setup and get pure awesomeness flowing from FOH, particularly if you are in a band that follows the band that pissed of the sound people.
Click to expand...

A pro doesn't want to look bad by having a bad mix, even if the band are pricks.
 

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