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Is music theory important?

#341
taurus1 said:
there's a long list of famous musicians that don't know theory, that doesn't mean they can't communicate.
I mean do you really need theory to plays blues, country, rock, metal etc.?
there's definitely really technical forms of every genre but in their basic forms, limited knowledge isn't a death sentence.
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No, it's not necessarily a death sentence. But while celebrating the untrained rock star lottery winners, remember that there is an even longer list of musicians who have had to retire once they pass their sell-by date because they didn't get famous and that was all they could do. There is also an even longer list of wannabe musicians who could have possibly been great but will never know because they didn't take the time to learn theory and couldn't put the puzzle pieces together. That's what happens to the vast majority of musicians with no theory training. And that's fine if you're not career minded about music, but if you are, not learning theory just because Clapton can't read and he did well is silly.
 
#342
JimmyM said:
No, it's not necessarily a death sentence. But while celebrating the untrained rock star lottery winners, remember that there is an even longer list of musicians who have had to retire once they pass their sell-by date because they didn't get famous and that was all they could do. There is also an even longer list of wannabe musicians who could have possibly been great but will never know because they didn't take the time to learn theory and couldn't put the puzzle pieces together. That's what happens to the vast majority of musicians with no theory training. And that's fine if you're not career minded about music, but if you are, not learning theory just because Clapton can't read and he did well is silly.
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Well said, Jimmy.
 
#343
Up till recently I played with an old friend who knows music theory very well, but he doesn't have a creative bone in his body, so his music still sounded like crap even though technically it went along with what the rest of us were playing. Couldn't play by ear at all either. If it weren't for his complete lack of the concepts of rhythm and tempo, he'd be able to play the music I tab/score our for him no problem.

I've been jamming with another friend who hasn't a lick of knowledge of music theory, but he comes up with some of the most amazing riffs on guitar I've heard. He doesn't know how or why they go together, but they sound great. Unfortunately, it's frustrating to teach him certain songs because I'm not proficient enough at guitar to play what I want him to play, and I can't explain it in technical terms or write the music out in a classical score (tabs are a pain when trying to denote beats, rests, structure, etc.). It ends up being easier to let him write his own parts than it is to convey my overall vision to him.

In my opinion, knowing music theory makes it easier when working with others but it isn't 100% necessary. It makes it easier to explain/teach melodies in situations where either they have a writer's block (if creating their own part) or if the part they come up with doesn't match well with the mood of the song. However, in the end knowing music theory alone doesn't make your music good, it's how the song all comes together/their skill on the instrument which is what makes the music good. In my experience, it mostly boils down to how well you musically mesh with someone, the less you have to teach, the easier collaboration with others becomes.

If you plan on working with others, I highly recommend familiarizing yourself with the basic concepts of music theory.
 
#344
And also it's worth pointing out those examples where advanced theory knowledge added a future music career that nobody would have expected:

Prefect example imho is the leader of DEVO. Brilliant and successful neo classical film composer now. Who woulda thought... the man knows his stuff and is shockingly inventive (listen to their cover of satisfaction and try to figure out the math of the rhythms without theory....)
 
#345
JimmyM said:
No, it's not necessarily a death sentence. But while celebrating the untrained rock star lottery winners, remember that there is an even longer list of musicians who have had to retire once they pass their sell-by date because they didn't get famous and that was all they could do. There is also an even longer list of wannabe musicians who could have possibly been great but will never know because they didn't take the time to learn theory and couldn't put the puzzle pieces together. That's what happens to the vast majority of musicians with no theory training. And that's fine if you're not career minded about music, but if you are, not learning theory just because Clapton can't read and he did well is silly.
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And everyone in between! I ride a tour bus a good part of most months, but I'm not on track to be a famous rock star. In the meantime I picked up a Theater gig one night when I wasn't traveling that involved reading piano sheet music and figuring out what to play. Couldn't make that $50 without a decent knowledge of theory, and in my experience trying to be a pro musician on any level means $50 is a lot of money sometimes...
 
#346
This, I believe, is the answer:

Music theory is critically important. This does not mean that a musician cannot be good without classically learning theory. Theory is simply the understanding of how music works. Do not shun learning theory, but don't struggle and force yourself to learn four-part harmony and counterpart if you don't need it. If you want to do stuff with harmony later, learn it then. If it is helpful to take theory classes, do so. If it is not, study on your own. Know what you need to know, and don't let anyone tell you what you do or do not need to know.

I quit my music and theory classes my second semester of college, and I don't feel like continuing along the music major path would have been a good investment of my time and money. Instead, I'm learning other useful skills, and I'm expanding my musical knowledge on my own time, and not wasting that time with information that I won't need much outside the curriculum. If you like studying music history and classical song structures and rules, by all means, continue. But keep in mind that theory is about the way music works. You can learn theory your own way as long as you have a solid foundation.

This is my opinion, but I think it's pretty universally true that classes are just one way to learn things. It's up to you to decide whether or not you're better off learning it your own way, on your own time, and when you need to. Theory will not make you a better musician if the theory isn't pertinent to what you're doing musically. Knowing how to use schenkerian analysis on all of Beethoven's symphonies won't do you much good if you play straight ahead rock and roll. But if you want to write ambitious prog rock pieces, there's only so much that following the music of your heart can do. You need to have an understanding of how to do that, and how it works. And it's up to you to figure out what you need to learn and study to get there.
 
#347
I know a guitarist who could make it big if he only knew WHAT he is doing. He's good enough as far as his articulation goes, but his original stuff needs 'something' other than the same old progressions, for instance. he does come up with some catchy stuff, but if only he knew some theory he could go far, I think. But, alas, he has no desire to learn.
 
#348
Russell L said:
I know a guitarist who could make it big if he only knew WHAT he is doing. He's good enough as far as his articulation goes, but his original stuff needs 'something' other than the same old progressions, for instance. he does come up with some catchy stuff, but if only he knew some theory he could go far, I think. But, alas, he has no desire to learn.
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if this were true, every Berklee grad would "make it big", creativity, artistry, originality trump theory imo.
the landscape is littered with just as many theoretically trained musicians that couldn't make a go of it.
people say the same thing about golf, you need lessons and coaching to play in the PGA, Bubba Wattson (Masters winner) never had a lesson in his life.
 
#351
taurus1 said:
if this were true, every Berklee grad would "make it big", creativity, artistry, originality trump theory imo.
the landscape is littered with just as many theoretically trained musicians that couldn't make a go of it.
people say the same thing about golf, you need lessons and coaching to play in the PGA, Bubba Wattson (Masters winner) never had a lesson in his life.
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No.... he didn't say that all guitarists from there etc would make it big if they had theoretical training. He said he knows a guitarist who he thinks is really good and is only missing the theory to push him over the top. I don't get how you think that this therefore is equal to saying all Berklee grads would also be as great.

I don't see the connection because iirc Berklee allows plenty of guitarists with poor articulation or zero creative skill or no imagination or poor songwriting skill to graduate....

But anyhow... I agree about the golfer paychecks ;-)
 
#352
taurus1 said:
if this were true, every Berklee grad would "make it big", creativity, artistry, originality trump theory imo.
the landscape is littered with just as many theoretically trained musicians that couldn't make a go of it.
people say the same thing about golf, you need lessons and coaching to play in the PGA, Bubba Wattson (Masters winner) never had a lesson in his life.
Click to expand...

You don,t go to a music school to be a rock star ... you can't learn to be an artist ... but you can learn all the cold facts about music which may enhance your artist soul or not. But what I saw is more intrecate music coming from people who went to school.
 
#353
Clef_de_fa said:
You don,t go to a music school to be a rock star ... you can't learn to be an artist ... but you can learn all the cold facts about music which may enhance your artist soul or not. But what I saw is more intrecate music coming from people who went to school.
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if they didn't have the imagination or creativity to come up with intricate music without being taught theory, sure school would help a person like that.
other people like Allan Holdsworth for instance, creates some of the most intricate music ever and doesn't read or write standard notation.
he plays with guys like Gary Husband and Chad Wackerman and conveys how he wants things verbally and by listening to demos and rehearsing.
I'm not trying to put down learning theory at all, just shooting down the notion that people who don't know theory are somehow disadvantaged.

p.s. LOTS of people go to music school to try and be a rock star
 
#354
taurus1 said:
if they didn't have the imagination or creativity to come up with intricate music without being taught theory, sure school would help a person like that.
other people like Allan Holdsworth for instance, creates some of the most intricate music ever and doesn't read or write standard notation.
he plays with guys like Gary Husband and Chad Wackerman and conveys how he wants things verbally and by listening to demos and rehearsing.
I'm not trying to put down learning theory at all, just shooting down the notion that people who don't know theory are somehow disadvantaged.

p.s. LOTS of people go to music school to try and be a rock star
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I said this before but stand by it


Probably been said already but theory is like a map. There are many ways to get from a to b. but if you are in a stange town and don't ask directions then you could be wandering around for hrs before you get the result you want. Wandering aimlessly can be a pleasure too and give great unexpected things to you but with a map you don't just see a to b, you see a to b and every possible detour route to get from a to b before you even set out on the journey .

Or bluntly put you don't need to play a note before you already know how it's likely to affect the musical story you are telling!

I do most of my practicing in my head now. When teaching I only need to pick my bass if it is important to demonstrate


You can't teach creativity but you can open the doors.

Theory is also a great way of effective communication.

If you went to a jam night and some shouts 2,7 , 5 , 1 in d then knowing theory you can jam perfectly in tune and melodically before you have even hit a note.

Theory has nothing to do with phrasing which is really the main difference between a good player and a great player. If you miss the first point/analogy I've just made and it goes over your head then I have no further help for you.

But don't confuse reading with theory as so many people do.

Reading is like reading any language . You don't need to be able to read a single word to converse perfectly in English . Reading does not affect your ability to talk but if you can read then just like the internet you have access to every piece of information ever written down.

In English , how to speak , when to use nouns, plurals, Noun, pronoun, adjective, verb, adverb, conjunction, preposition, interjection , . These too are like the theory of music. Don't need them to speak English but you'll sound like you dont have a grasp in the language or will struggle to articulate your thoughts in some situations.

Also if we apply this to one thing say..knowing your modes. Just because something is say Dorian in c (d Dorian) doesn't mean you are limited by anything at all. You can still play those notes with any preference, in any order with any phrasing and hit all the chromatics around it or choose any other relative mode and every chromatic between . It just means you can accent/draw attention to the in tune notes more. If I'm in c Ionion I can run a lm augmented or whole tone scale from it and still make it work over most styles of its phrased right.

Meh! Give up after this!
 
#355
taurus1 said:
if this were true, every Berklee grad would "make it big", creativity, artistry, originality trump theory imo.
the landscape is littered with just as many theoretically trained musicians that couldn't make a go of it.
people say the same thing about golf, you need lessons and coaching to play in the PGA, Bubba Wattson (Masters winner) never had a lesson in his life.
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Well...I'm no big star myself either, but I know theory, and it has helped me emmensely. No, not every music grad would be a star. Some folks don't have the creativity, or they never were in the right place at the right time, etc. Theory doesn't guarantee stardom, but it does guarantee that you will understand music better.
 
#356
Theory is simply a language. It is not a rule book. It allows you to interpret and understand. It has never been intended to limit in anyway.

Creativity and understanding of theory are hardly mutually exclusive.

One issue with this discussion at this forum - as it comes up reasonably often - is that this board tends to be fairly "pop centric" meaning popular, cultural music in various forms. Some of the classical snobs might even call it "primitive" music.

Of course, all of these various forms tend to have their own attributes that a theory scholar could define in great detail, and the typical, experienced player in any of these genres understands them as well. He or she just may not speak the same language.

Once you step outside "pop" into some of the other genres, a more formal and trained understanding of theory is more expected.
 
#357
bezbass said:
I said this before but stand by it


Probably been said already but theory is like a map.

......

You can't teach creativity but you can open the doors.

Theory is also a great way of effective communication.
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I think everything that needs to be said is summed up in those three sentences. You need a guide to know where you're going, even if you want to go where no one has been, and you have to be able to tell your collaborators what you are doing, somehow.
 
#360
Back in the 80's I played in a band with a guitarist and keyboard player who had "won the lotto" so to speak at a very young age. They were in a band that was signed to a major label and before either of them turned 21 they were making albums, traveling the world and playing on all the major entertainment TV shows. They made seven albums and earned loads of money. They had a decent run of about eight years before the band broke up. Since the band had been so famous, they had opportunities to work in other high level situations. The keyboard player was hired to play on a Quincy Jones session, but during the session, his lack of reading skill led to him being dismissed from the session. (embarrassing!)

Neither one of them had the "book smarts" necessary to swim with the big fish, so as time passed they ran through their money and found themselves living back at home with their parents in the same room, sleeping in the same bed that they had slept in as kids. The only difference was that they had gold records and posters from their glory days hanging on the wall. At that point they were grateful to get gigs playing in hotels and nightclubs.

I also worked with a drummer who, by sheer luck found himself playing for a country singer right as she broke. She had two big hits on her first album, so off they went traveling the world, playing on MTV and all the big TV shows. He was then hired out of that band by one of country's biggest stars. That lasted about four years, after which he went back to Los Angeles. He had developed connections and was offered work by a very successful arranger. The only requirement was that he had to be a good reader. he couldn't read so it didn't happen. He auditioned for a few other recording artists but didn't get hired. A few years later, while playing in an empty bar in Arizona, he went to the bar, ordered a drink, sat down and looked up at the TV just in time to see himself playing drums on MTV. He said that was a very low moment for him.

Obviously my point is that even if you do make it big, you're odds of staying successful are much greater if you know your stuff. I think the main reason that most people don't learn theory is that they're either afraid it will ruin their feel and/or creativity, or they might find that it's too difficult for them to understand. Another reason would be that they're just lazy. Those, in fact, are the reasons that I gave myself for resisting learning theory. After a few years of playing professionally, I took the time to crack the books and learn as much as I could. I learned that none of my fears were valid, and my playing improved greatly.

I've been the dumb guy in the band, and now I'm the smart guy. It's MUCH more satisfying and rewarding to be the smart guy. If you don't know theory, go get a basic theory book and start reading. You will not regret it. You may find that you actually enjoy studying theory, as I do.
 

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