Is plugging a head into a power conditioner bad?

[bongomania]

Wow! I've never been accused of trolling before! Thanks for that, but I wasn't looking for anything more than a chance to add a different set of assumptions and arguments to what was becoming a completely one-sided conversation. And I will continue to do that, whenever it's needed. Seems like it's needed alot on this board.

"Casually" throwing the audiophile line out there is a pretty clear case of trolling, since you can only have expected that it would elicit a hot reaction. That's the definition of trolling BTW.

To be clear, audiophile reviews are purely subjective, while the arguments against their claims are largely objective, or at least attempt objectivity. You make a mistake if you think the comments from professional audio engineers (who aren't in the business of selling these things) are just "assumptions", and that therefore there's some need for you to add "more assumptions".

I'm almost 40, and I have owned my fair share of vinyl, turntables, nice amps, and nice speakers. Interestingly, I'm happy much of the time too, but not around trolls.

 

[JimmyM]

i have a friend who swears lp's sound better. has a real expensive stereo with turntable with a rosewood tonearm and the whole shebang. also has a cd player. we once took an audiophile version of an album made by mobile fidelity sound lab (ghosts in the machine by the police) and a cd of the same album. sorry, but the cd was a lot better. no surface noise, no clicks and pops, hotter low end and high end, etc. of course he argued with me the whole time, too. i think he geniunely thought the lp sounded better. either that or he was mad he spent all that money on a turntable

 

[silky smoove]

i think he geniunely thought the lp sounded better. either that or he was mad he spent all that money on a turntable

The placebo effect that's created by people who've spent large sums of money on something is powerful to say the least.

 

[zaubertuba]

i have a friend who swears lp's sound better. has a real expensive stereo with turntable with a rosewood tonearm and the whole shebang. also has a cd player. we once took an audiophile version of an album made by mobile fidelity sound lab (ghosts in the machine by the police) and a cd of the same album. sorry, but the cd was a lot better. no surface noise, no clicks and pops, hotter low end and high end, etc. of course he argued with me the whole time, too. i think he geniunely thought the lp sounded better. either that or he was mad he spent all that money on a turntable

That there were pops or clicks at all are a dead giveaway he probably has a ways to go, if he really wants to get the most out of vinyl. Most vinyl aficionados I know of don't tolerate surface noise, and many have an actual record-cleaning machine to take care of the problem.

Can't speak to the lows and highs, but it makes me wonder if he even has a proper phono preamp.

 

[JimmyM]

once you play a record, it's going to have pops and clicks. besides, i have bought brand new albums...even mfsl albums...and heard plenty of pops and clicks the very first time they were played. i think it's pretty impossible to get rid of them all. and how do you get rid of surface noise? the needle goes on the record's surface, there's going to be noise.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

First off, not a comparison to put "cheapo implementations" with "crappy converters" against a good turntable. Keep it fair, as nobody is trying to state that you can't make a CD sound bad.

Unless you can discern 16 bit 44.1k samples from 24 bit 88.2k samples in a double blind test, your assertion there is meaningless. Yes, there is absolutely a place for working with higher sample rates and bit depths, particularly with any potentially destructive processing. However, I wouldn't be alone in my awe if you could audibly discern two samples of the same audio at these different bit rates/depths.

What you call "immediacy" and "thickness" can be attributed to any number of parameters depending on what those terms mean to you. However, the limitations of vinyl in channel separation, dynamic range, and frequency response (RIAA curves) can all be matched completely by equivalent processing of a digital signal. Having produced as much as you claim to, you would know that you can only take away what's already there. If you want a "thick" sound, you can shelve off treble, or add some roundness from 80-150 hz. If you want "immediacy" you could add a bit of compression, maybe with some compressor pump for a bit of punch. But, if you *don't* want those things, it's pretty darn hard to remove the compression or frequency limitations of a vinyl.

I love vinyls just like I love my tube amplifiers and anything else nostalgic. However, I wouldn't kid myself into thinking I couldn't accomplish the exact same thing with more freedom by knowing my digital gear and DSP techniques.

CDs have more fidelity that vinyls. It is impossible to argue that. But, just the same, it is impossible to conclusively state that one media is better than the other when it comes to listening pleasure. This is entirely in the eye (ear?) of the beholder. But, let's be honest about what makes it enjoyable.

Honestly I would probably fail a double blind test of trying to pick out 44.1/16 vs 88.2/24, but working in my own studio, especially on drums or piano with room around it, I can hear the difference. Usually its not right away though, its when I pull up a sample folder and It doesnt sound right, then I realize I am in the low bitrate folders.
I would argue that LPs and other analog media have better fidelity than digital media. Sure digital has a better SNR and bandwidth, but the resolution in the limited bandwidth of a good LP is much finer.

I work in digital media all the time, but when I have a chance to do it all analog the benefits are obvious.
The idea that anything you can do in analog can be replicated by DSP is silly. There are some very good emulations out there on the TC powercore and Universal Audio DSP platforms but they arent the real thing any more than Amp Farm is real.
But hey I liked Hurt Locker better than Avatar.

To answer JimmyM, your ears.

 

[aBoMoFo]

but they arent the real thing any more than Amp Farm is real.

+1,000!

Digital emulation has come a very long way in the 7 years i've been casually playing around with it but it is no where near what compares to having an extremely nice amp into a great signal chain.

This thread is a pretty fascinating read but it's almost like trying to play 6 games of racquetball all at once on the same court. Fun to watch....

 

[JimmyM]

To answer JimmyM, your ears.

well hey, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. i don't hear anything special about records that hasn't been bettered by cd. except of course for album covers. album covers suck now.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

The placebo effect that's created by people who've spent large sums of money on something is powerful to say the least.

There's that, and there's also the Luddite factor and the counter-culture factor. The Luddites oppose any advances in technology, and for that matter would do away with technology completely if they could. The counter-culturists instinctively choose the road less traveled, simply because it is less traveled. For every 'purist' today who insists that records sound better than CDs there was a 'purist' circa 1950 who insisted that the 33.3 RPM LP was inferior to the '78'.

 

[BassIan]

It's hard to keep quiet when others are just as "evangelical" about their opinions. I'm just trying to keep a different point of view from being drowned out.



I can't argue with that. But that doesn't change anything.

I can appreciate your desire to express your personal tastes. I would be the last to try and drown out your opinion.

However, if we're talking purely about technical capabilities, opinions are part of a different discussion. This is the place for facts. It's difficult sometimes to reconcile the facts (ie. lower fidelity) with personal tastes or descriptors, since they may seem to conflict. The key here is to become educated on what facts actually associate with your preferences.

You're on a technically biased forum here, so tossing out audiophile terms as absolute fact will meet some resistance. It's in everybody's best interests to learn *why* something sounds more "immediate" or "rich" to you, rather than to just continue with the subjective terminology. It is far easier to communicate when the language is common to all parties. Using colorful descriptions is fun, and has its place, but it clouds the discussion when trying to determine whether or not to use a MOV-based powerbar or whether a CD or an LP has superior audio fidelity.

So, when a forum member with technical knowledge and background states that the fidelity, dynamic range and channel separation are greater on a CD, this is not a personal or subjective insult to fans of the LP. This is a statement of fact. Don't try to blur it with your preference, since many people prefer the sound of an LP despite the technical shortcomings. However, it is infantile to try to deny the shortcomings and justify your preference with false claims of technical superiority. Besides, you will be better at pursuing what you like if you know what the associated technical factors are.

As for the second point, my statement *does* change the story. The original assumption was that additional power "conditioning" would improve the audio of a playback system. This implies that the player itself is incapable of properly filtering its own power. Thus, my assertion is that if a player cannot adequately supply its own power, it is not a well-designed player. In this case, it's not worth supporting a poorly designed piece of equipment with additional peripherals. If the equipment you choose is of such high quality that it produces superior audio to a CD from an LP, it should absolutely have a decent enough power supply with sufficient filtering.

The above isn't evangelism. It's merely an attempt to allow both the technical (objective) facts to coexist with the qualitative (subjective) opinions and tastes in this discussion. Let's not confuse the two.

 

[okcrum]

Define "ordinary faults"?

And non-ordinary faults

Ordinary faults:

lightning strike > 1km away
nearby building refrigeration/A/C units transients with "lucky" feeder lengths
car crashing into local utility pole

Extraordinary faults:

lightning strike < 100m away
nearby building refrigeration/A/C units transients with "unlucky" feeder lengths, which act like a pulse forming line, generating 10s of kv instead of single kv transients.

Ordinary faults are what designers design for to conform to UL/IEC/ISO specs; they cover the majority of transient cases, but by no means all of them.

 

[Roadrunr]

Driving over them speed bumps is a beeachh with a turntable too.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Extraordinary faults:

lightning strike < 100m away
nearby building refrigeration/A/C units transients with "unlucky" feeder lengths, which act like a pulse forming line, generating 10s of kv instead of single kv transients.

Ordinary faults are what designers design for to conform to UL/IEC/ISO specs; they cover the majority of transient cases, but by no means all of them.

OMFG fault: lightning striking your rehearsal space. It happened to my band, with the hit passing through a steel ceiling support to the cement basement floor as we were playing.
None of our gear had any external surge protection. The only damage was a blown IC on the input stage of one channel of the PA mixer. That resulted from a cord being plugged into that channel, but no mic, the end of the cord lying on said cement floor. Total cost to fix: two bucks for a 4558 IC.

 

[agedhorse]

Extraordinary faults:

lightning strike < 100m away
nearby building refrigeration/A/C units transients with "unlucky" feeder lengths, which act like a pulse forming line, generating 10s of kv instead of single kv transients.

Ordinary faults are what designers design for to conform to UL/IEC/ISO specs; they cover the majority of transient cases, but by no means all of them.

Most consumer power conditioners won't fare well under these conditions...

 

[okcrum]

OMFG fault: lightning striking your rehearsal space. It happened to my band, with the hit passing through a steel ceiling support to the cement basement floor as we were playing.
None of our gear had any external surge protection. The only damage was a blown IC on the input stage of one channel of the PA mixer. That resulted from a cord being plugged into that channel, but no mic, the end of the cord lying on said cement floor. Total cost to fix: two bucks for a 4558 IC.

Nice! Must have startled you a bit. I've had 3 strikes at the house here since we moved in. Almost had a fourth, but the spark gaps outside fired and discharged one of the antennas to ground before the lightning leader formed. Still, sounded like a .45 going off. No damage at all though. Northern AZ during the monsoon season is like Florida for lightning, 'cept Fla. gets it all the time.

When I worked at the Invalid Link Removed, we tended to design things for the OMFG case. The last thing we needed was a toasted tech or physicist. I had no idea then that I'd be applying the same principles to my house wiring someday.

 

[okcrum]

Most consumer power conditioners won't fare well under these conditions...

That's for bloody sure!

 

[JimmyM]

There's that, and there's also the Luddite factor and the counter-culture factor. The Luddites oppose any advances in technology, and for that matter would do away with technology completely if they could. The counter-culturists instinctively choose the road less traveled, simply because it is less traveled. For every 'purist' today who insists that records sound better than CDs there was a 'purist' circa 1950 who insisted that the 33.3 RPM LP was inferior to the '78'.

naturally the 78 travels faster so it has to be better, right?

 

[okcrum]

naturally the 78 travels faster so it has to be better, right?

And agedhorse had almost gotten this thread back on track...

 

[Calaverasgrande]

well hey, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. i don't hear anything special about records that hasn't been bettered by cd. except of course for album covers. album covers suck now.

Thing is I am no golden ears. I have been playing punk rock and metal for almost 30 years. I know that I cant hear very high.
But I can hear stuff in LP's that I cant hear on Cd's. I suppose when you spend time analysing different reverb tails on snare drums you train your ears. So perhaps thats what I hear.

The analogy I would make is that digital audio is kind of like when you render a sharpen effect in photoshop. Everthing is very contrasty and sticks out too much. wheras analog is like the photograph before you scan it into the Pc.
Digital audio is great in that you can listen to it endlessly while you try out hundreds of guitar parts and the master does not degrade. You can cut and paste and use effects that only exist in the digital realm.

That and, guilty, I listen to iTunes more than records because fo the convenience factor.

 

[JimmyM]

And agedhorse had almost gotten this thread back on track...

you know me...i'm always happy to turn a thread that's about to get back on track right into a bridge abutment