Is there a cure for weird B string overtones?

[knuckle_head]

If I may suggest...

If you are having inharmonic overtones it may be that this is more pronounced with tapered strings rather than full thickness across the saddle. If this is so I would suggest you move the bridge back so that there is less distance between the breaking point at the saddle and where the string reaches full diameter.

This is most common with bare core strings and the solution is to minimize or eliminate the gap between the saddle and the winds.

 

[ric426]

In this case it's not bothersome enough to make me sell the bass, it just seemed noticeable enough to make me pose the question. I mainly just wanted suggestions on minimizing the effect and based on what I've found after trying some of the suggestions I think I'll be able to minimize it with new, lighter gauge strings (which will have an added benefit for my arthritic hands) and some more set up tweaking. Like dead spots, it does seem to be a result of the particular pieces of wood in the body and neck of a given bass. My RV-4 is the most even and balanced wood necked bass I've ever played, but most others haven't been as good, even the NYC Standard 4 I had for a brief time. It's all a roll of the dice. That's why I've never been adventurous enough to assemble a bass with fancy parts from Warmoth, Allparts, etc. As much as I'd enjoy the project, the results are unknown until you play it.

 

[seansbrew]

Some of the bases I have owned over the years have had quite a bit of this overtone thing going on. Some were worse than others. The only bass that didn't have any of these issues was my Modulus Qauntum. Even my Zon has some of these funny frequencies. I don't think that my composite neck basses are as bad as the wood necked basses I have owned.

 

[Mikeyd74]

Experiment with moving your pickups away from your strings. If that doesn't work go and get your bass intonated.

 

[69nites]

PRO SETUP. works miracles.

body resonance would effect a few notes and would effect the same notes on different strings. That is not the case here so I'd throw that out the window.

 

[winston]

One thing I've found that improves the response of low E/B strings: once the string is tuned to pitch and you've got action/intonation set, press down firmly on the string on both sides of the nut and right where the string meets the saddle at the bridge. To me this "defines" the vibrating length of the string, putting it in a straight plane, and has made the difference between "pretty good" and "great". Also be sure the string doesn't get twisted along its length when you're installing it.

I've generally had mixed results with all the taper-wound strings I've tried (Dean Markley SR2000, LaBella Super Steps, Sadowsky Flats, LaBella Hard Rocking Steels). The one exception is Pedulla tapercore strings, which I've found to be consistently phenomenal (especially the steels) and free of overtone weirdness up the neck.

I must agree that construction has a lot do to with B-string response. Ironically my 34" scale Pedulla Rapture has the best B of any bass I've ever owned, including 34.5" and 35" scale instruments. I can play the B up to the 15th-17th fret without boominess or strange overtones. Favorite strings on this bass are D'Addario Nickel XLs with .125 B.

 

[ric426]

I picked up a single .120 non-taper D'addario nickel round Bstring at a local shop and just tried it. It helps quite a bit and seems a little punchier to boot. I'll see how the taper .125 that comes with the Sadowsky set sounds next week, but so far going to a thinner gauge string seems to be helping the most. It'll be getting a pro fret dressing, recrown and set up on Wednesday too. Thanks for all the tips and suggestions!

 

[ibz]

One thing I've found that improves the response of low E/B strings: once the string is tuned to pitch and you've got action/intonation set, press down firmly on the string on both sides of the nut and right where the string meets the saddle at the bridge. To me this "defines" the vibrating length of the string, putting it in a straight plane, and has made the difference between "pretty good" and "great". Also be sure the string doesn't get twisted along its length when you're installing it.

I've generally had mixed results with all the taper-wound strings I've tried (Dean Markley SR2000, LaBella Super Steps, Sadowsky Flats, LaBella Hard Rocking Steels). The one exception is Pedulla tapercore strings, which I've found to be consistently phenomenal (especially the steels) and free of overtone weirdness up the neck.

I must agree that construction has a lot do to with B-string response. Ironically my 34" scale Pedulla Rapture has the best B of any bass I've ever owned, including 34.5" and 35" scale instruments. I can play the B up to the 15th-17th fret without boominess or strange overtones. Favorite strings on this bass are D'Addario Nickel XLs with .125 B.

Pedulla strings are great strings!

 

[BassyBill]

It may be that the pickup is too close to the string and you get funny noise due to magnetic pull.
Also the more general set up may have something to do with it.
Try a thinner B string , it may be more articulate.
Also another brand or kind of string may do it...maybe
Touch does something as well.

Experiment with moving your pickups away from your strings. If that doesn't work go and get your bass intonated.

These two guys have nailed it for you, I believe. Try lowering the pickups away from the strings on the bass side a little. Lighter strings will also help.

This is very often the cause of these "extra" dissonant frequencies that you hear mixed in with the actual note (and they ARE usually called wolf tones). The magnets in the pickups exert a force on the string and affect its vibration, even when you're playing unamplified. Google "Stratitis" for more info on this fairly common problem.

 

[remo]

wolf tones are spots on the fret board where the wave of the note is close to the size of the instrument you're playing on. The sound wave and the wave produced by the vibration of the body hit each other and it causes loud note that sounds kinda airy because the instrument has trouble projecting it. I guess they thought it was animal like while naming it. I've heard about them on violin, cello and double bass a lot. Never on electric...

I describe that as a dead spot, lacking fundamental and sustain... for me a wolf to is a blurry, woolly note that lacks definition and sounds smeared with overtones.

 

[fullrangebass]

Just like other TBers have suggested before, I'd too suggest to move the bass side of the pickup(s) way from the B string and see how that works

 

[iamlowsound]

My peavey foundation has a great B string that has great consistency all the way up the neck. That being said, I have no idea what strings are on it, they were the ones that came with it when I bought it a few months ago and I liked them so much I didn't change them.

lowsound

 

[Jerry J]

I describe that as a dead spot, lacking fundamental and sustain... for me a wolf to is a blurry, woolly note that lacks definition and sounds smeared with overtones.

This is exactly what I think of when anyone says wolf tones.

Oh and Ric, when I changed from the Elixers strings which don't have a tapered B to the new Sadowsky nickels with the tapered B I had to raise the B string saddle quite a bit to get it away from the pickups. This made a huge difference.

Plus I lowered the pickup as suggested by others. This was great and helpful advice. Thank you all!

 

[Angus]

Dbassmon,

Are you an engineer? Because the thing about body resonance is an absolute load. That is not what produces wolf or inharmonic overtones, and is not going to be the issue here.

If I may suggest...

If you are having inharmonic overtones it may be that this is more pronounced with tapered strings rather than full thickness across the saddle. If this is so I would suggest you move the bridge back so that there is less distance between the breaking point at the saddle and where the string reaches full diameter.

This is most common with bare core strings and the solution is to minimize or eliminate the gap between the saddle and the winds.

Ding ding! I was going to repeat the same thing- exposed and taper core strings make this substantially worse, especially as guage goes up. Just horrible.

 

[ric426]

Oh and Ric, when I changed from the Elixers strings which don't have a tapered B to the new Sadowsky nickels with the tapered B I had to raise the B string saddle quite a bit to get it away from the pickups. This made a huge difference.

Plus I lowered the pickup as suggested by others. This was great and helpful advice. Thank you all!

Yep, like I said In my original post, I *have* tried action and pickup height adjustments, both higher and lower than I'd normally have them. In some cases raising the string and/or lowering the pickup helped, but in others it seemed that lowering the bass end of the pickup actually accentuated the overtones because the fundamental seemed to drop off faster than the overtones. Go figure.
BTW, I always adjust the B string bridge piece according to the type of string I'm using.

 

[Angus]

Well, in any case the fundamental should fall off much sooner than the overtones.

 

[sixway]

Someone earlier in the thread asked what kind of bass you're talking about, but after looking through your replies, I either passed over the info, or it hasn't been mentioned yet. Several things come to mind though...

I bought a custom-built five string bass several years ago, with a 36" scale neck, mono bridges for each string, and settled in to using the first generation Elixer strings. They sounded fine, but were too heavy, so I tried a set of tapers next, and had the same problem you describe. I had just gotten the bass back from having the neck dialed in at a local shop, and pulled it out that night to play it, and noticed the same ghost harmonics in the upper register on the B and E strings especially.

It was too late to call the shop, and one of the voices in my head fortunately said to try an old full-wound set of strings I had saved, and after putting them on, the ghost-tones disappeared! I realized that the adjustable post in the mono bridge is shaped like a trough, and was allowing the taper strings to slide back and forth in the groove. I've used full-wound strings since, was using Lakland Nickel light gauge strings for a few years after that, and now use Thomastic-Infeld Nickel light gauge strings.

One last thing, because of the 36" scale, I've had problems finding strings to fit that length, but the Laklands and Thomastics fit and sound great. Check the fit of the strings in the bridge for "snugness", and for that matter, check how they fit in the nut. It may come down to just trying different string sets until you find the right match. Making sure your bass is set up properly will eliminate that as one less problem.

Is this a new or used bass? Either way, check the wiring and make sure it has been done properly... it's a slim chance, but maybe it's wired out of phase...

Good luck - let us know when and how you got it dialed in...

Mele Kalikimaka (Merry Christmas) from Hawaii...

Ian

 

[Angus]

Wiring out of phase wouldn't change the frequency content, though.

 

[bazzanderson]

I recently got a 5 string bass that I *really* like, but I'm having a hard time finding strings that don't give me weird overtones (wolf tones?) on the B string, especially if I go above the 7th fret. The higher I go the worse it gets. I've tried several different taper core and regular round wounds and they all seem to do it. The best B string results have been with D'Addario Half Rounds, but overall I prefer nickel round wounds on this bass, except for the B string.
Any suggestions? I've tried action and pickup height adjustments, both higher and lower than I'd normally have them, even a different set of pickups that I had, but so far, nothing has really helped.
Any suggestions?

a 4 string

 

[Dbassmon]

Dbassmon
Are you an engineer? Because the thing about body resonance is an absolute load.

Hey Angus... like your style. Are you a luthier? Your profiles says you are a hobbyist luthier. Fine to say you disagree, but what do have to have to back up your assertion?

Do some research!

Wolf tones occur when strong sympathetic vibrations from the instrument itself interfere with string vibration. The sensation may manifest itself in pulsation, throbbing, roughness, jump infrequency, or difficulty in drawing the tone from the instrument.

Origin of the Wolf Tones
The reasons for these so called wolf tones has been studied in many publications. One good source of information is the "ACUSTICA" magazine Volume 49 (1981), which explains how the effective lenght of string is changed close to the body resonances. When the string resonance is at lower frequency than that of the coupled structural resonance, the bridge vibrates in the same phase as the forces acting on it; the effective lenght of the string is increased and the resonant frequency is therefore decreased.This causes phase cancellation and odd overtones. For a string resonance above the resonant frequency of the coupled resonance, the bridge moves in opposite phase to that of the forces acting on it, so that the effective lenght of the string is decreased; its resonant frequency is therefore increased. For relatively weakly coupled string resonances the maximum damping occurs when the frequency of the string resonance coincides with the structural resonance.

Care to disagree? State your case!