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Is there something about opening acts?
- Thread starter hrodbert696
- Start date
No insight on the mix issues, but man, BNL....that makes me feel old...I happened to be at one of thier first shows in Kingston Ontario back in the early early '90s. This was before the Yellow Tape started circulating. There were about three people in the bar and I was wondering mightily at what looked like a country band playing "Fight the Power". So, I went and talked to them, bought a round for us all and got invited to thier next gig in my hometown the following weekend. And then it took off! Funny bunch of cats.
Back in the eighties and early nineties, I expected this at any and every show I saw. EXPECTED it. If you were the opener, from arena level on down, you were going to sound like garbage and that was done on purpose. Only big name act I saw that never did that to their openers was Rush. It's better today but still happens more often than it should, which is never.
It does nothing save display a staggering insecurity on the part of the headliner. I have only seen an opening band "blow the headliner off the stage" once, Bryan Adams opening for Journey in 1985, and short of pulling the power and sending the audience home, there was not a damn thing Journey could have done about it. That good. I was not a Bryan Adams fan then or now, but he has my unending respect. The guy is a force of nature live.
It does nothing save display a staggering insecurity on the part of the headliner. I have only seen an opening band "blow the headliner off the stage" once, Bryan Adams opening for Journey in 1985, and short of pulling the power and sending the audience home, there was not a damn thing Journey could have done about it. That good. I was not a Bryan Adams fan then or now, but he has my unending respect. The guy is a force of nature live.
Rush are a class act, a band of good guys amongst a sleazy business full of ego-driven douchebags. It's a shame the music business has to be this way.
Insecurity is the right word here. Because the funny thing about it is that Rush always felt confident letting the openers shine knowing that in the end, if the whole show is good, it'll be good for the headliner, too.
And if your opener blows you away, take it in stride and woodshed. I also saw Bryan Adams open for Journey in the 80s at an outdoor stadium, and they both sounded really good. Journey edged Adams out with the light show, though, as is fitting for a band like that.
I saw Rush in 81 or 82, and Saxon opened and they had a very good mix.
I've seen a support band blow the headliner of stage a few times. One to the extent that I can remember the name of the support band (Raissa) because I subsequently bought all the albums, but can't even remember the name of the headliner. But normally, when the support band is good, I don't stop buying material by the headliners, so I am not sure what the purpose of making the opener sound bad could even be. If it's a cheap gig I didn't travel for I might conclude the PA is terrible and home, or it might at least make be reconsider ever going to that venue again if it's the house's PA.
30 years ago(!) the band I was in opened for a regional act two times, about a year apart.
The first time, our followers in the audience said we sounded great, but were pretty quiet.
The second time the monitors cut out during 2nd song, the lights went FULL on during a song, stayed on until we started the next song and then went black for the remainder of the song, the kick drum mic cut in and out, then the FOH high-cabs stopped working. We were supposed to play for 45 minutes, we cut our last two songs because we couldn't take it any more. When the headliner started playing, everything was magically fixed. Magically as in no one was seen scrambling around or even mildly concerned that there was a problem.
In my latest band, the guys talk about opening for larger acts to get "exposure", I tell them that the only thing you get from exposure is frostbite. We'll play a benefit/show with a shared bill if we get the opportunity, but we will -never- open for someone.
The first time, our followers in the audience said we sounded great, but were pretty quiet.
The second time the monitors cut out during 2nd song, the lights went FULL on during a song, stayed on until we started the next song and then went black for the remainder of the song, the kick drum mic cut in and out, then the FOH high-cabs stopped working. We were supposed to play for 45 minutes, we cut our last two songs because we couldn't take it any more. When the headliner started playing, everything was magically fixed. Magically as in no one was seen scrambling around or even mildly concerned that there was a problem.
In my latest band, the guys talk about opening for larger acts to get "exposure", I tell them that the only thing you get from exposure is frostbite. We'll play a benefit/show with a shared bill if we get the opportunity, but we will -never- open for someone.
In 25 years of production, I've seen a lot of variations on this theme. (I've been saying 20+ years in the biz until recently when I had to sit down and verify my time with this company by the month and date until present).
I know that "derating" or pulling back the production for openers happens, there's no doubt about it. But in this time frame, I simply haven't seen it happen. Maybe it's just my little spot on the planet. In fact, in two cases that stand out, the Big Star came out to FOH and asked the mixer (me, in 1 case) to "please out that lead vocal a little more out front".
Better than Ezra has been known to carry their own FOH guys (and pretty hit and miss at times). It's most likely that the soundguy Du Jour probably liked way too bass in his mix.
Where we see opening bands get shorted is with load-in, soundcheck, and having their time slot shortened. Oh, yeah, and stage space to set up. That really does turn into a serious problem that we are simply stuck in the middle and have to deal with. Just yesterday, I advanced a date with an opening act that's traveling with a Big Artist (already talked to the Big Artist). Very easy production rider, almost no requests or need, except for 1..."Can the Big Artist be scheduled for a really early load-in and soundcheck? They are famous for being late and dragging out their soundcheck. We've actually had no time for a soundcheck after they screwed around all day". I understand that's being worked on...
Back in the late 90s, I was a walk-in FOH guy for some friends that were opening for a Big Artist of the day. The production company at the time took it upon themselves to derate the opening bands with no requirements or instructions from the headliner. This was in the day of huge analog desks and there was only one desk for the entire line-up.
I walk up and introduce myself. Immediately, the attitude set it. "You can have 13 channels, that's it!"
Me: "Fine". I adjusted the input list and sent it to the stage.
Company tech: "No processing! No gates! No compressors"
Me: "Fine".
CT: "And no FX, either!"
Me "Fine, fine, fine!"
Afterwards, I couldn't believe that this guy complimented me on the mix. "Thanx, considering what I had to work with, that's nice to hear". "Oh, you know how it is". I just smiled, shook his hand and walked off.
I know that "derating" or pulling back the production for openers happens, there's no doubt about it. But in this time frame, I simply haven't seen it happen. Maybe it's just my little spot on the planet. In fact, in two cases that stand out, the Big Star came out to FOH and asked the mixer (me, in 1 case) to "please out that lead vocal a little more out front".
Better than Ezra has been known to carry their own FOH guys (and pretty hit and miss at times). It's most likely that the soundguy Du Jour probably liked way too bass in his mix.
Where we see opening bands get shorted is with load-in, soundcheck, and having their time slot shortened. Oh, yeah, and stage space to set up. That really does turn into a serious problem that we are simply stuck in the middle and have to deal with. Just yesterday, I advanced a date with an opening act that's traveling with a Big Artist (already talked to the Big Artist). Very easy production rider, almost no requests or need, except for 1..."Can the Big Artist be scheduled for a really early load-in and soundcheck? They are famous for being late and dragging out their soundcheck. We've actually had no time for a soundcheck after they screwed around all day". I understand that's being worked on...
Back in the late 90s, I was a walk-in FOH guy for some friends that were opening for a Big Artist of the day. The production company at the time took it upon themselves to derate the opening bands with no requirements or instructions from the headliner. This was in the day of huge analog desks and there was only one desk for the entire line-up.
I walk up and introduce myself. Immediately, the attitude set it. "You can have 13 channels, that's it!"
Me: "Fine". I adjusted the input list and sent it to the stage.
Company tech: "No processing! No gates! No compressors"
Me: "Fine".
CT: "And no FX, either!"
Me "Fine, fine, fine!"
Afterwards, I couldn't believe that this guy complimented me on the mix. "Thanx, considering what I had to work with, that's nice to hear". "Oh, you know how it is". I just smiled, shook his hand and walked off.
Just by way of followup, saw another show during my Kansas City trip night before last, this was the Reverend Horton Heat with three openers, the last of which (a personal favorite of mine) was the Ben Miller Band. Smaller venue, also outdoors. And each band was mixed perfectly.
I presume this is not a Ben Miller in any way related to the UK comedy duo Armstrong and Miller? Alexander Armstrong puts out albums, though, so who knows? Edit: unless Ben Miller has really changed his look since his comedy days, unrelated.
As an aside, when I was running a venue is a disused church, we had a Reverend Something and the Whatevers in, with somewhat blasphemous lyrics, and part of the church fell off during the sound check...
Ha ha, no, it was these guys...
Not a bit surprised. Reverend Horton Heat is known for "Psychobilly Freakout." I was curious what he's like now; he played "Freakout," but early in the night, and I kinda suspected he was getting it out of the way. Most of his show was more straight surf and rockabilly, though a lot of it still had some of that edginess on it.
You might be surprised at how much stage sound you might hear from the position in your photo, even in an outdoor venue. It could easily skew the mix to be bass heavy, especially if the guitar amps were pointed the other way.
BNL and BTE almost certainly had their own FOH and monitor engineers. 99% of acts at that level carry their own crew so there's that factor. Offhand, I'd say BTE were louder on stage than BNL (I've worked with BNL, they are not loud on stage at all) which as I alluded to above, can make quite a difference even in a large venue.
But in general, it is standard procedure for some production to be held back from support acts as to not upstage the headliner and this includes both sound and lighting. This has been the case in 95% of the shows I've been involved with over the years. If headliner is going to be hitting 110dB at FOH, don't expect to mix the support act any louder than 105 and don't expect to have access to all of the moving lights, etc. This goes on even when the acts are friendly with each other.
When support acts are not touring with the headliner (i.e. local acts), it's pretty common for them to not get much of a soundcheck and to be mixed by the PA technician. This isn't always a bad thing. I've been that guy plenty of times and as often as not I've had people come up and say that the support act sounded way better than the headliner.
My big club experience in the 80's opening for big time bands (R.E.M etc) was always pretty positive.The First Ave in Mpls (home of Prince) was and still is a world class venue.Their pa was owned by a outside company with a sound engineer always present.They appreciated our ability to get on and off the stage quickly and not cause much of a fuss about our sound.It always sounded good but the sound guy was pretty much on auto pilot.Headliners obviously sounded better because they had their own guys familiar with their needs.We did open for Cheap Trick and their guys made it perfectly clear that we could not play louder than them.The club engineer came up after and said the guy was driving him nuts, telling him to turn us down so he made it his mission to make us sound great and would turn us up even louder when the guy would leave.I have to say though that the Cheap Trick band guys were really cool and said it was pretty amazing that 2000 of their fans would put up with a 3 piece pop punk band.
