Is this good? Boom Bass Cabinet

[agedhorse]

Caveat: The 112 cab came after I left. I know next to nothing about it. On the power tip...

I can't say I really understand this. I've used my Mike Pope/Crown Drive core XLS1500 (well over 1000w bridged) rack with my Bag End S15XD 1-15 cabs which I think might be rated at 250w. I've also used it with my Quilter BB800 which is capable of over 400 into 8 ohms. Never had an issue either way.

Clearly you haven't experienced the real world of bass players. If you have paid attention on TB, we gat a small taste of players blowing speakers from lack of understanding, poor judgement, accidents involving unintentional loud signals, other people using their gear, and a variety of other barely imaginable scenarios.

When a company has a reputation to uphold, and a long, transferable warranty, they tend to be more conservative and less flippant regarding their advice.

My advice is based on decades designing and servicing/supporting this kind of equipment. I do not come from the hobby perspective where the advice given is worth exactly what it costs... zero! I try to be more responsible than that.

You might want to go back andvre-read this entire thread, the more you say, the more amunition folks here have to doubt everything else you continue to say. There is a lot to learn from how this thread has progressed if you open your mind to it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Clearly you haven't experienced the real world of bass players. If you have paid attention on TB, we gat a small taste of players blowing speakers from lack of understanding, poor judgement, accidents involving unintentional loud signals, other people using their gear, and a variety of other barely imaginable scenarios.

When a company has a reputation to uphold, and a long, transferable warranty, they tend to be more conservative and less flippant regarding their advice.

My advice is based on decades designing and servicing/supporting this kind of equipment. I do not come from the hobby perspective where the advice given is worth exactly what it costs... zero! I try to be more responsible than that.

You might want to go back andvre-read this entire thread, the more you say, the more amunition folks here have to doubt everything else you continue to say. There is a lot to learn from how this thread has progressed if you open your mind to it.

Wow. In the apparently not real world of bass players that I exist in people can and do actually learn how to use equipment properly. Which might explain how I've been able to use amplification professionally for decades without blowing drivers up that aren't rated as highly as my amplification as I mentioned. And if that gives someone ammunition so be it. I'd rather have educated users than assume that ignorance will be the norm. I'm the only one who's ever used an 800w amp with a cab rated for less. That's flippant.

Didn't realize you were this cynical. This stuff gets deeper by the day.

 

[BadExample]

Wait, we want to spend how much on an unknown cab, used, from an unknown seller, when there are so many great new warrantied cabs from well known manufacturers?

Maybe they will ship and you can buy it before the the OP does.

 

[agedhorse]

Wow. In the apparently not real world of bass players that I exist in people can and do actually learn how to use equipment properly. Which might explain how I've been able to use amplification professionally for decades without blowing drivers up that aren't rated as highly as my amplification as I mentioned. And if that gives someone ammunition so be it. I'd rather have educated users than assume that ignorance will be the norm. I'm the only one who's ever used an 800w amp with a cab rated for less. That's flippant.

Didn't realize you were this cynical. This stuff gets deeper by the day.

Brad, do you realize that you have gone up against just about everybody who has participated in this thread? You wonder why you get the reactions that you do, but nobody else does. That's why I suggested that you re-read this entire thread, paying attention to your responses to valid comments.

You do not represent the vast majority of players, or the conditions that they play in. What works for you does not, FROM EXPERIENCE, work for everybody else. Players using heavier overdrive and distortion might be one scenario where I would hesitate to recommend even matching the amplifier's rated RMS power to a speaker's rated RMS power. This also assumes that the rating uses the same metrics... none are mentioned in the BBC specifications which leads me to believe the numbers quoted are ~2x the RMS value (based on my VERY through understanding of the 12PR300 driver). Nothing wrong with using different metrics, but not mentioning which metrics are being used is misleading and leads to misunderstandings and accidental damage (that damage should be IMO covered under the speaker manufacturer's warranty because it's reasonable to assume that 600 watts is 600 watts (except when it's really 300 watts RMS).

Sure I'm cynical, that's what engineers get paid for. When something doesn't seem right, we don't blindly and stupidly go forth and make a bad decision when we really do know better.

So, what is the cabinet's power rating? Do you even know?

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I know the 12PR300 very well. My experience tells me that the useful limit (fartout point as Duke says) is around 300 watts. Yes---the thermal limit is maybe 2x as much, but the driver is useless above 300 watts. That's why it's called the 12PR300. So, two of them would be 600 watts. Obviously the power specs stated on the website are the peak thermal limit. So---Andy's point is valid I think. If you put 1000 watts into it---you will fry the voice coil. Brad---I get what you're saying. I use a 1200 watt amp with all of my speakers. Like you, I know how to use a volume control. I've never blown a speaker. But if you say 1200 watt power handling---to Andy's point--if an unsuspecting bass player puts that amount into it---he will blow it up. I always tell my customers that while my drivers are rated at a high power rating, that that rating is where you'll fry the voice coil---the practical playing limit is about half that. Of around 300 cabs out there I've had two guys blow drivers. They both admitted that they were putting way more power into it than I recommend. (one was one of those "jam session" horror stories. a guy sat in and turned the volume and bass up with a 1000 watt amp).

Many bass players don't understand this stuff and it's pretty hard to warranty stuff when a guy puts 1200 watts into the cab and fries the voice coils. I don't know about you---but I worry about losing money replacing drivers when they are supposedly being used within stated parameters.

 

[agedhorse]

Based on my experience, putting 800 watts RMS into a cabinet of that size with that driver and the very best tuning possible, the driver will tear itself apart in not much time, and below 45Hz it won't take long at all. I have done the testing under the best possible conditions, I know the limits. The thermal limits will likely not be the issue under these conditions, though they could be under different conditions.

IF it was stated as 600 watts PEAK and 300 watts RMS, then we have units that can be applied to come to a more realistic conclusion, but we have nothing.

I do think of the player. Nobody wants to blow a driver, but to do it thinking that you are following good (accurate) information and recommendations just adds salt to the wound of an already expensive proposition.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Brad, do you realize that you have gone up against just about everybody who has participated in this thread? You wonder why you get the reactions that you do, but nobody else does. That's why I suggested that you re-read this entire thread, paying attention to your responses to valid comments.

You do not represent the vast majority of players, or the conditions that they play in. What works for you does not, FROM EXPERIENCE, work for everybody else. Players using heavier overdrive and distortion might be one scenario where I would hesitate to recommend even matching the amplifier's rated RMS power to a speaker's rated RMS power. This also assumes that the rating uses the same metrics... none are mentioned in the BBC specifications which leads me to believe the numbers quoted are ~2x the RMS value (based on my VERY through understanding of the 12PR300 driver). Nothing wrong with using different metrics, but not mentioning which metrics are being used is misleading and leads to misunderstandings and accidental damage (that damage should be IMO covered under the speaker manufacturer's warranty because it's reasonable to assume that 600 watts is 600 watts (except when it's really 300 watts RMS).

Sure I'm cynical, that's what engineers get paid for. When something doesn't seem right, we don't blindly and stupidly go forth and make a bad decision when we really do know better.

So, what is the cabinet's power rating? Do you even know?

Thanks for the feedback. Does who I've "gone up against" and what I've gone up against them about matter? It usually doesn't. When someone can say something as silly as "fear good, boom bad" who probably still has yet to hear a cab? Because as he said he didn't need to?

I know I don't represent the vast majority of players or I would've mindlessly blown something up by now. If you want to assume I don't play as loud as many do, cool. Or what effects I use too. I know better.

When we initially beta'd these cabs we couldn't believe the volume we were getting out of the cabs. It made no sense to me based on the specs of the components and the size of the enclosures. We tried to hit the wall with them and it didn't happen. One model of the amp we tested with were our Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0's with all gains around 75% on and a couple of my Brubakers with the internal gain on the Bartolini NTB's close to 90%. I also tested with my Pope?1500w Crown amp with the gain structure on the Pope set similar to the Shuttles and the XLS1500 bridged and gains maxed. I eventually wore hearing protection because at one point my ears shut down... should've been wearing them all along. Dumb.

I've dealt with people who "test" cabs by moving a cable from one to another while keeping everything the same. Unless your gains are glued down, what exactly is the point of that? That's a s ignorant as setting your new amp's EQ just like your old one, even though they have difference voicings.

I was with the company for two and a half years. In that time, with all sorts of players playing all sorts of music banging away at these we might've had one minor problem with a Faital Pro driver and I don't recall a full out failure. We encouraged people to hammer them. And when they make the mistake of coming to Talkbass and saying something nice about them they usually get hounded by the usual suspects. But that is clearly okay.

We had a handful of people who thought they had problems, even swapped out drivers, only to find there was typically a problem with their amp.

I have nothing to do with the current specs. I can understand why you make the recommendations that you do, not sure what the real motivation for the condescending reply was, am I not allowed to disagree with you? I know I usually agree with you but my experience and the experience of the majority of our customers differed in this case. The fact that we do make recommendations on how to achieve whatever folks are after up front may have figured into that. I've spent a ton of time fielding questions from people whether they bought or not.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Based on my experience, putting 800 watts RMS into a cabinet of that size with that driver and the very best tuning possible, the driver will tear itself apart in not much time, and below 45Hz it won't take long at all. I have done the testing under the best possible conditions, I know the limits. The thermal limits will likely not be the issue under these conditions, though they could be under different conditions.

IF it was stated as 600 watts PEAK and 300 watts RMS, then we have units that can be applied to come to a more realistic conclusion, but we have nothing.

I do think of the player. Nobody wants to blow a driver, but to do it thinking that you are following good (accurate) information and recommendations just adds salt to the wound of an already expensive proposition.

We had several people who wouldn't turn the cabs up based on physical size. One of the more fun things IRL was to be with someone as they tested the cabs and wouldn't push them. If it was their cab I'd preface what I was about to do by telling them that if I blew anything up I'd fix it. If it was in a store there was no need for the disclaimer. And then I'd push the cab harder than they'd even imagined and watch jaws drop. Still not maxing out the cab. Judging from the complaints at Labella's Lords of the Low End event a couple of years ago there seemed to be a consensus that the people testing them were too damn loud... even though we were practically alone on the second floor.

I've been gigging my 1012 for going on three years, with and without PA support, in ensembles that were acoustically aggressive. No issues.

My point, based on my and others' experience, is that you'd had to do something more drastic than any of us had to put the cab in danger. I continue to be extremely impressed with Faital Pro's drivers, especially in being able to sound great in much smaller than spec'd enclosures.

Again, I'm no longer there. The low end spec was 50hz when we tested them, I have no idea where 30 or 38 came from. I didn't feel it was necessary to go that low, even with my fives and sixes. And I don't go for a twinkly tone.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I know the 12PR300 very well. My experience tells me that the useful limit (fartout point as Duke says) is around 300 watts. Yes---the thermal limit is maybe 2x as much, but the driver is useless above 300 watts. That's why it's called the 12PR300. So, two of them would be 600 watts. Obviously the power specs stated on the website are the peak thermal limit. So---Andy's point is valid I think. If you put 1000 watts into it---you will fry the voice coil. Brad---I get what you're saying. I use a 1200 watt amp with all of my speakers. Like you, I know how to use a volume control. I've never blown a speaker. But if you say 1200 watt power handling---to Andy's point--if an unsuspecting bass player puts that amount into it---he will blow it up. I always tell my customers that while my drivers are rated at a high power rating, that that rating is where you'll fry the voice coil---the practical playing limit is about half that. Of around 300 cabs out there I've had two guys blow drivers. They both admitted that they were putting way more power into it than I recommend. (one was one of those "jam session" horror stories. a guy sat in and turned the volume and bass up with a 1000 watt amp).

Many bass players don't understand this stuff and it's pretty hard to warranty stuff when a guy puts 1200 watts into the cab and fries the voice coils. I don't know about you---but I worry about losing money replacing drivers when they are supposedly being used within stated parameters.

As I just mentioned, drivers were not failing long term, which was obviously a concern from the beginning, which is why we beat the cabs up pretty good before offering them. A friend of mine built custom cabs that I used and a couple of guys kept blowing up Eminence drivers. I know Eminence got tired of that really quick and the builder eventually just shut down, which was a shame. Should've just dealt with the guys who were abusing the cabs. No cab is magic.

If my Shuttle 9.0 was only generating 300w into a 4 ohm cab despite over the top aggressive playing with aggressive basses, cool. I doubt it. And we got even louder with my rack. I know it's hard to believe, I also know I heard what I heard. That's what blew me away about the design.

As far as me shutting up and watching the BS fly as usual, if I'm out of line I'm sure a mod will contact me. As someone who's dealt with similar stuff repeatedly, do you also see this as me going up against people?

 

[bassfacer22]

@Dave Hill

Don't sweat it, Those who know, know that the BoomBass cab doesn't cut it compared to some of the other high-end cabs.. haha

I also know that if I buy a MAS,Fearless,Bergantino, (and probably Barefaced too.) and a few others cab companies, they will definitely "sound" better..

BoomBass Cabs are probably good, but I don't like how they voiced the cab. (Or the voicing of it)

 

[10cc]

@Dave Hill

Don't sweat it, Those who know, know that the BoomBass cab doesn't cut it compared to some of the other high-end cabs.. haha

I also know that if I buy a MAS,Fearless,Bergantino, (and probably Barefaced too.) and a few others cab companies, they will definitely "sound" better..

BoomBass Cabs are probably good, but I don't like how they voiced the cab. (Or the voicing of it)

That was my biggest complaint and that's where my "sterile" description was aimed towards.
The second major concern was the fact that a Mesa Subway D-800 was obviously pushing the tank to its limits.

 

[10cc]

Really nothing at all for anybody to get upset about though. It is what it is.

 

[10cc]

@Wumper
This might tickle your fancy
For Sale - BFM Jack 12 2x12 Cab - Bill Fitzmaurice

Another local Georgia prospect.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Again, I'm no longer there. The low end spec was 50hz when we tested them, I have no idea where 30 or 38 came from. I didn't feel it was necessary to go that low, even with my fives and sixes. And I don't go for a twinkly tone.

You see---this is my big beef. A 50hz spec is fair and reasonable. I think that BBC has gotten sucked into the "spec wars" stuff. As a builder, I refuse to do that.My buddy Duke posts specs that are completely accurate. Guys have gotten used to exaggerated specs as the norm They don't know what's true and what's not. With Duke's huge sounding 12" cab (which uses a custom woofer that has an fs 10 hz lower than the 12PR300 and has nearly twice the excursion) he states the frequency response at -3db at 57hz I think. And power handling of 500 watts. I think that the Tank is likely close to that. So--if your normal bass player is trying to narrow down his (or her) list of cabs he's going to look at specs. In a small enclosure the 12PR300 (with a stated fs of 50hz) ain't gonna go much lower than 50hz in a larger reflex box let alone a very small driver enclosure. So the player looks at the specs and thinks " why should I go for 57 hz extension when I can go down to 38 hz with a Tank?" So Duke loses a sale because BBC publishes VERY unrealistic specs. 90% of bass players don't know that this is merely a sales tactic. Another big name company uses the 12PR300 in a small box and claims a frequency response of 30hz. This is so unfair to manufacturers who choose to post realistic specs.It is not necessary at all for a cab to have a big B string sound to go lower than 60hz. Most bass players don't know that when they are hearing a "huge B string" that they are hearing the second harmonic (octave). So they think "I want to have a big B string so I need 32hz--I ain't buying a cab that only goes to 57hz" when the 57hz cab has a bigger and stronger B string. So the honest guy loses a sale. So now more and more manufacturers are exaggerating their specs so that they appear competitive. It's almost like you can't be honest and competitive at the same time.

 

[bassfacer22]

You see---this is my big beef. A 50hz spec is fair and reasonable. I think that BBC has gotten sucked into the "spec wars" stuff. As a builder, I refuse to do that.My buddy Duke posts specs that are completely accurate. Guys have gotten used to exaggerated specs as the norm They don't know what's true and what's not. With Duke's huge sounding 12" cab (which uses a custom woofer that has an fs 10 hz lower than the 12PR300 and has nearly twice the excursion) he states the frequency response at -3db at 57hz I think. And power handling of 500 watts. I think that the Tank is likely close to that. So--if your normal bass player is trying to narrow down his (or her) list of cabs he's going to look at specs. In a small enclosure the 12PR300 (with a stated fs of 50hz) ain't gonna go much lower than 50hz in a larger reflex box let alone a very small driver enclosure. So the player looks at the specs and thinks " why should I go for 57 hz extension when I can go down to 38 hz with a Tank?" So Duke loses a sale because BBC publishes VERY unrealistic specs. 90% of bass players don't know that this is merely a sales tactic. Another big name company uses the 12PR300 in a small box and claims a frequency response of 30hz. This is so unfair to manufacturers who choose to post realistic specs.It is not necessary at all for a cab to have a big B string sound to go lower than 60hz. Most bass players don't know that when they are hearing a "huge B string" that they are hearing the second harmonic (octave). So they think "I want to have a big B string so I need 32hz--I ain't buying a cab that only goes to 57hz" when the 57hz cab has a bigger and stronger B string. So the honest guy loses a sale. So now more and more manufacturers are exaggerating their specs so that they appear competitive. It's almost like you can't be honest and competitive at the same time.

Good news Mike, Your MAS cabs are far more popular than any Boombass cab. So you win the popular vote and the bass players that want high-end cabs go for yours/or and the few other names I mentioned in earlier posts.

So they can say whatever specs they want, but when the real sound test comes down to it, It appears more people will like the "other" already high-end cabs over the tank, as said here among other posts. Whether its 34hz or 50hz..? You and the other companies are still getting the sales over Boomboxes... at-least on my end, and as for word of mouth goes

 

[Brad Johnson]

You see---this is my big beef. A 50hz spec is fair and reasonable. I think that BBC has gotten sucked into the "spec wars" stuff. As a builder, I refuse to do that.My buddy Duke posts specs that are completely accurate. Guys have gotten used to exaggerated specs as the norm They don't know what's true and what's not. With Duke's huge sounding 12" cab (which uses a custom woofer that has an fs 10 hz lower than the 12PR300 and has nearly twice the excursion) he states the frequency response at -3db at 57hz I think. And power handling of 500 watts. I think that the Tank is likely close to that. So--if your normal bass player is trying to narrow down his (or her) list of cabs he's going to look at specs. In a small enclosure the 12PR300 (with a stated fs of 50hz) ain't gonna go much lower than 50hz in a larger reflex box let alone a very small driver enclosure. So the player looks at the specs and thinks " why should I go for 57 hz extension when I can go down to 38 hz with a Tank?" So Duke loses a sale because BBC publishes VERY unrealistic specs. 90% of bass players don't know that this is merely a sales tactic. Another big name company uses the 12PR300 in a small box and claims a frequency response of 30hz. This is so unfair to manufacturers who choose to post realistic specs.It is not necessary at all for a cab to have a big B string sound to go lower than 60hz. Most bass players don't know that when they are hearing a "huge B string" that they are hearing the second harmonic (octave). So they think "I want to have a big B string so I need 32hz--I ain't buying a cab that only goes to 57hz" when the 57hz cab has a bigger and stronger B string. So the honest guy loses a sale. So now more and more manufacturers are exaggerating their specs so that they appear competitive. It's almost like you can't be honest and competitive at the same time.

I know, Mike.

Guitar Center still has the correct low end specs from when I was at BBC. Go figure.

 

[agedhorse]

The frequency response is often specified as the point that the acoustic response is down 10dB from the average sensitivity, but can be different and should be in the specifications.

As a point of reference, we provide the low frequency rolloff points on the Subway cabinets at -3, -6 and -10dB which makes comparisons easier and more convenient. I think this was a TB request.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

That's how it should be. There is a certain speaker manufacturer that published the same specs. In the general info page for a cab he stated "usable response to 37hz". Using a Kappalite variant 12. In a tiny box.I was scratching my head when an Italian TB member sent a list of specs that had been on their site. Again, on the page that was the catalog page for the speaker said "usable to 37hz"---but a separate technical page stated the -3and -10db specs. The speaker that was "usable to 37hz" has a -3db point above 50hz (can't remember exactly but I think it was mid 50's) and a -10db at 44hz I think. At 37hz it was likely at least 15db down. Doesn't seem very "usable" to me. That technical page has been removed from their site for some years now.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Again, I just wanted to say that I've met both Drue and Brad at some shows and they were really good guys. Brad--I do remember seeing you checking things out at my booth at the winter NAMM show in 2017. I was hoping you'd stay to say hi---but I was likely busy doing my sales spiel!

 

[lpbfender]

Been reading this thread and appreciating the debates and opportunities to learn as always on TB
Been gigging off and on since 1976 and currently gigging 1-2 times per month in NYC area sso I guess I am somewhere in the middle in terms oaf TB experience.

From a musicians perspective....

The great thing is that there are many, many choices in bass amps and cabinets and gear, and gear has never been more affordable. (In 1974 I bought an Acoustic 361 used for $550 which is $2,778 today adjusted for inflation.)

The troubling thing is the return of "spec claim inflation," particularly watts and freq response. Kustom used to do this when they launched there tuck and roll amps in the late 60's.

This is rampant in live sound gear as well, leading to a miseducation of consumers in the market buying powered PA cabs, but funny not in guitar amp gear. In fact the market has been moving to lower guitar amp wattage for many many reasons.

Do my Yamaha DBR 10 speakers really deliver 700 watts and go down to 55 hz as claimed on a big label on it's front? I attended a friends gig and I asked if his PA speakers could handle the room. He replied "yeah they are 2000 watts each."

The point I'd like to make with all due respect, is that a musician will know how well the gear performs and if it fits their needs after usage right away - volume, response and quality of response. And with all due respect to manufacturer's reps, designers, and engineers, IMHO, there is a disservice underway in communicating/promoting/focusing on specs that do not reflect what delivers on stage (or at home) for the musician. With the demise of retail outlets and lack of high end gear available to sample, musicians rely on spec and forums, as I did when I placed my order for a Barefaced Big Twin 2 without trying it.

When I bought that Acoustic amp, "RMS" was the standard. Now it seems to be buyer beware.